Tuesday, January 2, 2018

Israel's Capital, the Palestinian Authority's Rejection of it, and the Forthcoming Taylor Force Act

I mentioned in a previous post how President Trump recently acknowledged Israel’s capital of Jerusalem as such and stated that the United States would start working to move our embassy there accordingly. 

President Trump did not unilaterally make this decision, but actually responded to a law passed during the Clinton administration that has been delayed in its implementation on a semi-annual basis since the time it was passed.  President Trump finally stopped the proverbial kicking-of-the-can-down-the-road and decided to not defer action when the most recent six month review came up yet again.

Of course the response from most of the Muslim world and other hateful anti-Semitic nations was immediate and vociferous.  U. N. representatives of the 57 mostly Muslim-majority members slammed Trump's decision and called on all countries to respond by recognizing east Jerusalem as the “capital of the State of Palestine.”

The corrupt and anti-Israel United Nations drafted a resolution that, without explicitly naming the U.S. or President Trump, expressed "deep regret at recent decisions concerning the status of Jerusalem" and said such decisions "have no legal effect, are null and void, and must be rescinded."

U.S. Ambassador Nikki Haley's lone vote against the resolution scuttled the measure which gained support from all 14 other current Security Council members.  Ambassador Haley called the resolution an "insult" and said it "won't be forgotten."  Haley further characterized the failed resolution as "one more example of the United Nations doing more harm than good in addressing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

Haley then went on and pointed out the fact that the U.S. has given more than $5 billion in aid to the Palestinians since 1994, which is significantly more than the combined contributions from all other nations on the Security Council.  Despite this fact, the Palestinian Authority enriches itself while many of its people live in poverty, all the while they denounce Israel and America.

Regardless, the resolution came on the heels of an emergency summit of Muslim nations two weeks ago in Turkey. There, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas declared, "Jerusalem has been, and will remain forever, the capital of the State of Palestine."  He further proclaimed that this “ancient Palestinian capital” of Jerusalem was not of the Jews, as history and archaeology attest, but of the Palestinian people. "We have been there in this location for thousands of years," Abbas claimed, linking Palestinians, who are Arabs, to the ancient Canaanites.  That's a claim for which there is no evidence.

But Abbas was just getting started, as he further declared, 
"[Jerusalem] is a Palestinian Arab Muslim Christian city, the eternal capital of the state of Palestine. There can be no Palestinian state without the city of Jerusalem as its capital and there will be no peace in the region and in the world without it."
In a full vote of U.N. members of 128 to 9, with 35 abstentions (including Canada and Mexico) the U.N. passed a resolution that declared President Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital "null and void" accordingly.  Of course this has no impact on Israel’s choice of its capital or the United States of America as recognizing it as such.  It is simply another meaningless resolution by an impotent and corrupt organization that desperately needs to be reformatted, if not totally scrapped.
President Trump and Ambassador Haley said they were taking note of which friends and allies voted against the U.S. with its declaration and intimated that future U.S. foreign aid might be impacted accordingly. 

As for the U.S. taxpayer funding of the Palestinian Authority, I have long been of the opinion that not a single dime should be spent to that end until they fully renounce and work to end terrorism against Israel.  Finally, the United States is one step closer to actually doing so, as on December 5, the House of Representatives finally passed the Taylor Force Act.  It is a bill that calls for defunding the Palestinian Authority until they end their “pay to slay” policy. 

The bill, which has also been passed by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, now awaits the full Senate to take up the bill for a vote.  The Taylor Force Act will compel the Palestinian Authority to face the consequences of its violence or end this abhorrent practice immediately. If the bill is enacted, they will have to revoke any law, decree, or document authorizing a compensation scheme for prisoners "that uses the sentence or period of incarceration to determine the level of compensation paid."

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has steadfastly rejected all calls to stop funding terror,
"I don't intend to cease payment for families of prisoner martyrs, even if it costs me my seat," he vowed. "I will continue to pay them until my last day."
Congressman Doug Lamborn (R-CO), the bill's sponsor, issued this statement following the previous vote out of the House committee:
"I am very encouraged that my bill, the Taylor Force Act, has passed with bipartisan support in the House Foreign Affairs Committee. This is an important first step in stopping U.S. tax dollars from funding Palestinian Terrorism. The Palestinian Authority must be held accountable for glorifying terrorism by paying terrorists and naming streets in Ramallah after Palestinians who murder Jews.
The Palestinian Authority devotes almost half of its foreign ‘aid’ to rewarding acts of terror against Israelis and innocent bystanders, including American war hero Taylor Force. It is outrageous that our government would, for so long, turn a blind eye to actions that violate international law and fan the flames of hatred, terrorism, and murder.”
With the United States officially recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, we have been warned that this will incite further violence.  It is ironic that some Leftists and indeed Muslim factions in the Middle East have acknowledged that they will resort to violence as a tactic when they do not get their way on issues when it comes to the Israel/Palestinian debate.  “Do as we demand, or we will act with further terrorism” seems to be the standard operating procedure for the Palestinian Authority.

The fact that the Palestinian Authority does not truly want peace, but rather a full and complete capitulation and dismantling of the state of Israel suggests to me that there was no reason for the U.S. to not move forward in acknowledgement of the truth of Israel’s capital.  Further, as the PA has refused to negotiate in good faith towards peace, we should remove all further funding from them accordingly, and I suspect we will start to do so shortly with the upcoming passage of the Taylor Force Act.

This year marks the 100th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration and the 95th anniversary of the League of Nations mandate, both of which established legal title of the land to the Jewish people.  Even more  importantly, the status of Jerusalem has been determined by God, and his decree is not subject to human opinion.

171 comments:

Carrie said...

This is the most thorough and thought-provoking article I've read on the subject. Packed with facts and quotes from the principals involved in this, it outlines the pros and cons of Jerusalem as Israel's capital and it makes me wonder why the Left is always, always on the wrong side of issues. Here's a thought: Islam has only existed for about 1400 years while Israel/the Jews have lived in and around Jerusalem for over 3500 years and existed for over 5700 years. Just yesterday it was reported that archaeologists found a clay coin in excellent condition near the far side of the Western Wall proving the governance of Jerusalem was Hebrew. The Canaanite claim is bogus but even if it were true, those peoples were surely not role models. One only has to refer to the Bible to see that. Finally, this article makes me more proud than ever of our President Trump who has shown more leadership and personal bravery in his first year than any president in decades. His positive influence at home and around the world is certain as ironically evidenced by the pushback of those opposed to him! T. Paine is an astute writer; his blog is noteworthy for its intelligence and fairness.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Thank you, "Ms. Paine", for your throughly unbiased and unslanted opinions of your husband. Besides Chuck, you're undoubtedly his biggest fan. ;-)

T. Paine said...

Carrie, first thank you for your kind praise. I am blushing as I type this. Thank you also for the further historical information thus further proving the lie that Jerusalem is "Palestinian" by right and history.

It is amazing the propaganda and disinformation promulgated by the Palestinian Authority, their proxies, and many of our leftists brothers and sisters, especially in the United States.

This is a pretty clear cut issue when it comes to facts and logic, and yet the cries for "peace" by those fomenting terrorism and intimating war still continue. It truly is a very sad thing.

And see what I was saying about how some of my beloved readers would surely react to your comment, Carrie?

JG, for the record, as I promise before God, Carrie is not my wife or even related to me in any way. She is a dear friend that is undoubtedly far better versed in knowledge and understanding on this issue than I am. The point that you cannot deny the facts of the article or Carrie's comment and yet choose to try to denigrate the source of a positive comment on my post suggests to me that you have no solid facts with which to effectively argue a contrary position, sir.

Majormajor said...

Mr Paine,

You can't be surprised by jG's post.

T. Paine said...

Majormajor, I didn't know who it would be specifically that commented in the manner JG did for sure, but I suspected something of the sort after reading Carrie's very gracious and informative comment.

Rain Trueax said...

Well thought out and said. Our times, for using logic though, are insane.

Carrie said...

Rain, I just read your profile. We have some things in common. Would love to meet you once day! Not that far from your Tuscon location.

T. Paine said...

Thank you for you kind comment, Rain. I hope you had a wonderful Christmas and New Years.

"Our times, for using logic though, are insane."

Indeed they are. It seems they are all but lost often times. I have hope though that, through people of good will, we can restore some semblance of common sense and use of logic in our future days.

Carrie, I suspect you and Rain would indeed get along well. She is one of those thoughtful people, with interesting insights, about which I was telling you I had hoped to cultivate a readership among.

Majormajor said...

Isn't is odd that jG attacks the women who post here? First it was Rain and now it's Carrie.

Must be the leftist war on women.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Trump probably delayed any potential of a two-state solution by decades, if not forever, and along with George W. Bush will ultimately take the blame for creating an unsustainable situation in the Middle East.

It's historical fact that the state of Isreal confiscated (and subsequently settled) what was known as Palestinian land prior to both the 1948 war (and subsequent Palestinean refugee exodus) and 1967 6-Day War. The West Bank, the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula were taken away and occupied illegally and without compensation.

I'm a firm believer in the Palestinian right of return for those forced from their homes, in addition to their millions of descendents. Until this step is agreed upon by all nations and parties involved, there will never be peace - and rightfully shouldn't be.

Carrie's offer of primary governance in those lands is unsubstantiated and based on non-historical data. If there's insistence on your part in observing original inhabitancy as the basis of ownership, we can escalate this argument to include true ownership in other areas of the world. I'm confident you don't want to go there.

Needless to say, the PA and the Palestinian people have been subjugated to second class status once again. It never ends - with or without the Taylor Force Act.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Chuck, as always your comments are irrelevant and out of leftfield. I see you haven't included honesty or truthfulness as part of your new year's resolutions.

As your Dear Leader says, sad.

Jerry Critter said...

“...as always your comments are irrelevant and out of leftfield.”

Considering the comment source, I would be inclined to say that the comments are out of right field.

Carrie said...

JG, it seems you are biased and do not know the facts. You have succumbed to Palestinian propaganda. There was no such thing as a Palestine country before the other Arab states kicked out their uneducated and poor from their citizenship. If you look at the make up of those now called Palestinians, they come from Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. so the "right of return" is bogus unless, of course, it means the right of the peoples is to return to their countries of origin. (Arafat was Egyptian and he used his corrupt power to keep the monies sent to help refugees for himself. His wife and daughter now live in Paris, richly, off that money that was never theirs.) It was the Jews who were kicked out of Saudi, Egypt, Jordan and every other "functioning" Arab state. It was the Arabs who sided with Hitler and vowed to destroy the Jews (and of course, seize their lands) during WWII in an effort to further enrich themselves long before there was an Israel. AND it was the Arabs who SOLD the land now called Israel to those creating the country of Israel. Those lands were not seized. The land itself was desert and worthless to anyone. No oil there, and the Arabs who lived on it did nothing to make it live. When the Jews came to Israel, they worked hard, very hard, to turn the desert into an oasis in the midst of nothing and today Israel thrives --not because of Arabs, but because of the Jews who worked it. (I will say that just hours after the State of Israel was created, those same Arabs went to war to take back the lands the sold away and that is where this saga begins. Those areas you cite are simply the land taken back what the Arabs seized away.) This entire situation was created & exaggerated by the Arab despots who desperately want to retain their power and riches by using the so-called Palestinians as scapegoats to detract from their rule.If you look honestly, the so-called Palestinians and their fellow Arabs have contributed nothing to modern civilization besides the oil they sit on. Israel has led the way in science, medicine, technology - and even literature and the arts. It is said that the Arabs can lose war after war but Israel cannot afford to lose once. That's because of oil money and people like you who are so bigoted you can't see the truth.

Dave Dubya said...

Mr. Paine,

Shall we unpack a few of your “facts”?

”other hateful anti-Semitic nations” is your opinion. Apparently only the US, Israel, Guatemala, Honduras, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Togo are not “hateful anti-Semitic nations”

What a black and white world you live in.

...Abbas has steadfastly rejected all calls to stop funding terror,..."I don't intend to cease payment for families of prisoner martyrs...”

This is called “conflation”. Financial support for families is NOT the same as “funding terror”. On June 13, 2017, Tillerson told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that during his visit to Bethlehem on May 23, 2017, the PA had promised him that both it and the PLO had "changed their policy... and their intent is to cease the payments to the family members of those who have committed murder or violence against others....”

The fact that the Palestinian Authority does not truly want peace

This is your opinion, sir. No evidence was cited. This is what you “feel”.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has called on the European Union to take the initiative in the Israel-Palestine peace process.

This letter by British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour does NOT establish “legal title”. You “feel” that it does.

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.


So the “League of Nations mandate” has become a sacred law with “legal title” to be followed for eternity, yet the “corrupt and anti-Israel United Nations” created the modern state of Israel.

“Legal title” according to whom again? A non-existent entity? A British Foreign Secretary’s “declaration of sympathy” ? How are these “legal” in any way?

Never mind. No answer is expected. It feels good to believe so, and that is enough. (I get it. This is why I am a “commie” in your belief system.)

But UN resolutions violated by Israel can be ignored. What kind of thinking is this? I take it the UN is evil because they wanted a Palestinian state too, aka the “two state solution”. This has been the preferred solution by liberals, moderates and conservatives for a long time.

Is it asking too much for documentation of the claim “the status of Jerusalem has been determined by God”?

Maybe your Bible says “God has decreed Jerusalem to be the capital of modern Israel”. Show me please.

Forcing religious beliefs on others is wrong. That includes Sharia. But since apparently liberals are “always on the wrong side of issues” I’m probably wrong here too.

Dave Dubya said...

Claire,

it makes me wonder why the Left is always, always on the wrong side of issues.

This would be the baseless accusation of a very biased ideologue. I'm sure you are a very nice person, but some of your beliefs are questionable. Conservatives have never understood liberals. We ask too many questions perhaps. We accept there are gray areas and understand ambiguity while conservatives see only black and white in their world view.

Perhaps you should wonder why you believe paid oil company shills over the scientific consensus on climate change. Perhaps you should wonder why you believe Trump is honest and brave and has a “positive influence around the world”. I bet it “feels” really good to simply believe that nonsense, doesn’t it? Did it also “feel good” when all those con-servatives accused Obama of being a Kenyan? But the “left is always wrong”? I bet you think “very fine people” were marching with the Nazis in Charlottesville, just like Mr. Paine and Trump. The “Left” disagrees, so we must be wrong about that too. I’m sure “very fine people” love to join in on Nazi organized “Unit the Right” marches.

You like the Bible, so tell me, what did Jesus say about that beam in the eye? What did He say about the rich? Did He say, ”Honor their wishes and support their greed, for the rich are always right”? This is the heart of con-servatism.

Here’s a thought. Native Americans have lived here thousands of years. What gives white people the right to put them on reservations and make Washington DC their capital? I asked Mr. Paine to share his thoughts on this comparison of land and heritage, but he couldn’t find the time.

Scientists extracted enough DNA from the remains of five people – found in the former Canaanite city state of Sidon and dated to about 3,700 years ago – to sequence their entire genome.

They compared this to 99 modern Lebanese people and discovered they had inherited about 90 per cent of their genetic ancestry from their ancient forebears.
No single tribe has exclusively occupied that land for most of history. It was not always Jewish. They were not the first to live there. They lost it, and the UN gave it back to them.

The fact is there was NO state of Israel for over two thousand years. It was a Roman client state until the Diaspora.

On November 29, 1947 the United Nations adopted Resolution 181 (also known as the Partition Resolution) that would divide Great Britain’s former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states in May 1948 when the British mandate was scheduled to end. Under the resolution, the area of religious significance surrounding Jerusalem would remain a corpus separatum under international control administered by the United Nations.

From: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel

If you provide facts proving I’m “always on the wrong side of issues” I would be quite grateful.

But I still say your claim is based purely on what you “feel”. It feels like Obama is a Muslim, doesn’t it? It feels like Hillary operated a child sex ring from a pizza place, doesn’t it? A larger number of conservatives and Republicans believe this crap.

How could I always be wrong then?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Thank you for the personal attacks, Carrie, which I've learned to expect from conservatives when their stance is unqualified and based upon falicious and erroneous propaganda at best.

I don't have the time to debate your claims at this moment, but rest assured that I will later. I find your opinions - and opinions are the best I can categorize them - to be fascinating and right in line with typical conservative and Trumpist folly and cultist beliefs.

Enjoy your day...

Majormajor said...


jG just siting the facts of life to two women, that you and Dave attack women on this site.
Claire,

Just a FYI,
anytime anyone disagrees with jG or Dave, they call it a personal attack.

Carrie said...

Well, Dave, I do want to respond to 2 things you said:
1. Abbas is not funding terrorism; what do you call rewarding the families of "martyrs" with money and support? At the least that is encouraging the terror attacks. At worst it is also inciting them.
2) UN has never been a collection of countries wanting peace. It is a group of special interests that vote according to their own prejudices and needs, not for the good of the world or for the peace its charter imagined it would establish. In my opinion, the UN has caused more harm than good; it certainly has not lived up to its purpose.
3) Israel is the ONLY nation in the mid-East that allows and even encourages freedom of religion. It is a haven for Jews cast out of Europe escaping from Hitler and others but it also welcomes those around the world who need help. e.g.Yemenites were rescued from their persecution several years ago and brought to Israel, given jobs, homes, etc. Arabs serve in the Knesset and in the military as equals. Women are respected and elevated. Education is valued. Helping others is primo -- did you know Israel travels round the world with its medical help and technology to assist 3rd world countries? I can't think of one Arab country that does same. If the Arabs had heart, they would take in the refugees, but they'd much rather keep them in the spotlight to deflect from their own doings as I've said.

JG: I suppose you'd have cheered Hillary as president, the woman whose self-interest and greed had her hypocritically pandering to the minorities and further fracturing our country with phony identity politics. She is the woman claiming to fight for women while destroying the lives of her husband's victims. She was fired from her first important job for lying/cheating to achieve the outcome she wanted and she's continued that MO since. She has a 30+ year path of destroyed lives in her wake. Thank God voters saw through her. I don't agree with Bernie but at least he is sincere in his beliefs and says what he means.

As for Obama, I lived through 8 years of him, cringing all the way. His admin was perhaps the most scandalous and divisive in my time, using identity politics to win votes and favor, breeding people such as those now being revealed who were working destructively behind the scenes. Unfortunately he is not really gone as he is the first president to go round the world continuing his apology tour and continuing to criticize the U.S. and our new president. His arrogance is astounding.

OK, I'm done responding. T. Paine has a terrific site and excellent, thought-provoking articles. He sure provoked thought with this one!

Dave Dubya said...

Thank you MM for your Beliefs presented as “facts”:

G just siting the facts of life to two women, that you and Dave attack women on this site.

anytime anyone disagrees with jG or Dave, they call it a personal attack.


And what does MM call disagreeing with women? “Attacks”.

Contradictions? Double standards? So what?

Facts are what the Right says they are. Just stating something makes it a “fact”. Not just a fact, but a very special fact called an “alternative fact”.

Alternative facts are to be instantly believed.

Beliefs over facts. It is the far Right’s political correctness.

And liberals are always wrong?

Yup. Them dang librools agree with ejakators, and jernalists, and siantists, so that must mean thayz ALL WRONG.

Why? Cuz Limbaugh, FOX(R) and Breitbart say so. That makes it a fact.

Ya just gotta Buh-Lieve them “Alternative Facts”.

Every Rightie knows that. So they dutifully regurgitate it without question, without evidence and without thought.

I trust MM will not take all this as a “personal attack”. He’s no snowflake.

Carrie,

Thank you for your various and valid points on Israel. I’m guessing you understand their viewpoint better than that of those under occupation and in ghettos like Gaza. You’re right about the lack of charity from other Arabs.

You are educated Carrie. You must certainly know the UN created Israel. The UN sent soldiers from 15 nations to fight alongside the US in Korea. I’m sure you are aware of their many peace keeping and relief missions too. It’s OK to be angry when they disagree with you though.

His (Obama’s) admin was perhaps the most scandalous and divisive in my time... self-interest and greed... phony identity politics... lying/cheating to achieve... and continuing to criticize the U.S. and our president. His arrogance is astounding.

Oh, my. You have just portrayed the Trump Administration. Honestly, from my perspective...and soon to be the historical perspective.

“His apology tour” is a well-known “alternative fact”. This is Republican propaganda talking point. It is false. You cannot show it to be true.

“Criticize the US and our president?” You mean like Trump praising Putin as he criticized our president? Like Trump saying Obama was not an American ?

Careful of that projection.

(This is not a personal attack.)

Just the Facts! said...

Cause only leftist know the "real" truth, right Dave?

Majormajor said...

$5 billion over 20 years to Palestinians has gotten us what, exactly?

T. Paine said...

"Trump probably delayed any potential of a two-state solution by decades, if not forever, and along with George W. Bush will ultimately take the blame for creating an unsustainable situation in the Middle East." ~ JG

Good lord. Please do tell where you saw signs of a two-state solution and peace in the region being possible before President's Bush and Trump ruined it? You forgot to mention the TRUE damage done by President Obama in clearly coddling the Palestinian Authority and stating the the indefensible 1967 borders of Israel should be the starting point for any negotiations: a condition that President Bush assured Israel would never be levied upon them.

Further those lands that the Israelis took was due to the outcome of war. The ludicrous idea that those lands should be returned to Arab aggressor states or compensation be made to them because they lost these conflicts is amazing and fairly unprecedented.

As I wrote in an old post, "the irony of all of this, and what many that disparage the 'evil Jew Zionists' will repeatedly fail to acknowledge, is the fact that directly after the Six Day War the Israeli government did indeed offer to return the Golan Heights to Syria, despite the canon emplacements that Israel’s enemies placed there which look down on the Galilee and Tiberius. Israel also offered to return the strategic Sinai peninsula to Egypt (Something that did come into being when President Carter finally brokered peace between Egypt and Israel in 1979). Finally, Israel also offered to return the West Bank to Jordan.

What did Israel want in exchange for the return of these captured lands? All they asked for was an acknowledgement of Israel’s right to exist and to have peace. At that time, all of the surrounding Arab nations responded to Israel’s offer by declaring that there was to be no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with them, and certainly no peace. Israel kept these territories accordingly. To return these lands to the surrounding hostile nations would return Israel to a nation where its international airport is only three miles away from the pre-1967 borders and the nation itself would be only eight miles wide at it narrowest point."

http://savingcommonsense.blogspot.com/2011/05/president-obamas-new-peace-policy-and_30.html

As for the right of return, those refugees have been refused to be assimilated in other surrounding Muslim countries. They would rather keep the issue, than have peace. Further, by returning millions of Palestinians to Israel, they could simply vote as a majority to dismantle the nation that they and the surrounding armies could not defeat militarily. It is because of this that Israel will not ever agree to this demand. If they did so, they would soon cease to be a nation. Further, if these "refugees" had not fled their homes for what they were told would be a temporary period in order that the Arab armies could attack Israel unhindered, they would still be there. Indeed, those "Palestinians" that did not flee the Arab armies invasion as per their request are still Israeli citizens today, with all of the same rights that every Israeli holds. The only difference is that they are not required to serve in the Israeli military.

As for Carrie's offer of primary governance in these lands, that is simply a response to the fabricated claim by Abbas of having such historical claim to this area. It is simply false as history, archaeology, and even scriptural accounts verify that Jerusalem was a Jewish city long before the "Palestinians/Caananites" came to claim this real estate.

"Needless to say, the PA and the Palestinian people have been subjugated to second class status once again." ~ JG

I concur that the Palestinian people have been subjugated to second class status... by their corrupt government and the surrounding nations' governments that refuse to let them become citizens of those nations. The would rather have the issue than to have peace.

Dave Dubya said...

Further those lands that the Israelis took was due to the outcome of war.

Well, then, this means we should have annexed Germany and Japan, right?

We get to keep Iraq and their oil too? “To the victor go the spoils”?

I concur that the Palestinian people have been subjugated to second class status...

This is easy to say when you don't understand what these people have been through.

Black and white world again.

Carrie said...

Excellent and astute rebuttal, T. Paine. Thank you!

Majormajor said...

Carrie,

FYI, Dave does not answer questions, he only asks them, as he as shown many times, he thinks he is above having to answer any question. You do not debate him, he lectures you.

He is not a liberal, he is a leftist

T. Paine said...

Mr. Dubya, the world is indeed more black and white than you would acknowledge, sir. It is certainly not all gray as many of my leftist friends would have me believe.

As for Abbas refusing to stop payments to "martyrs", well I think Carrie did an excellent job of spelling out the truth of that falsehood and needs no further elaboration from me.

Next, as I have told you before, the Palestinian Authority does not want peace. While this is my opinion, it is based on pretty solid evidence. If they had truly wanted this, they would have jumped at the opportunity when Ehud Barak offered to concede to the Nobel-Peace-Prize winning terrorist Yasser Arafat nearly 90% of his demands, and Arafat STILL walked away from making peace. It was completely amazing.

When asked why he would turn down such a remarkable deal from Israel, Arafat responded that if he were to have accepted it, he would have next been having "tea with Mussolini". In other words, his own people would have risen up against him and killed him. It is because of this and the fact that no reconciliation in good faith on behalf of the Palestinians has occurred since then, that I can honestly say to you that the Palestinian Authority does not want peace with Israel. They want a complete capitulation and a destruction of the state of Israel.

If the Palestinian Authority and its proxies would truly want peace, work in good faith, and stop killing Israeli civilians, I would fully support a two-state solution, as would much of the world, I suspect. Unfortunately I suspect the only way a real and lasting peace will ever be found will not be as the result of faithless negotiations but rather at the end of a war where one side or the other is the unequivocal victor dictating the terms of unconditional surrender.

T. Paine said...

"Perhaps you should wonder why you believe paid oil company shills over the scientific consensus on climate change...Did it also 'feel good' when all those con-servatives accused Obama of being a Kenyan? But the 'left is always wrong'? I bet you think 'very fine people' were marching with the Nazis in Charlottesville, just like Mr. Paine and Trump. The 'Left' disagrees, so we must be wrong about that too. I’m sure 'very fine people' love to join in on Nazi organized 'Unit the Right' marches." ~ Dubya

You are as amazing as your predictable, sir. Did I miss the tangent where Carrie said anything about her positions on climate change, Obama being a Kenyan, or supporting neo-Nazis? You and JG rail against Majormajor when he goes off topic, but you do so nearly as often. I guess you are trying to tell us, from your perspective, what all conservatives think. Seems to me I was chastised for attributing leftist ideals to some folks on the left and was told that I am "telling you what you think". Ironic.

Next, how do you know Carrie even reads the New Testament and is a Christian. She may be a Jew and only have the Old Testament as her canon of faith. Maybe she is Hindu or an atheist and simply is a compassionate and good person that sees the injustices perpetrated against Israel by the Palestinian Authority and their proxies. You sure make a lot of assumptions and projections, Mr. Dubya. Perhaps you should ask a person's view on a given topic instead of simply making blanket assumptions, my friend.

As for me, I often think the left is wrong on most topics. Not all, but most. I can support why I think so accordingly. That doesn't mean that I am a monolithic conservative. Close... but not quite. Kind of like you on a few topics as you do support aspects of the second amendment and so forth.

It is more fun to accuse and throw bombs without really knowing though, right?

T. Paine said...

Yes Dave, we by right could have annexed Germany and Japan after WWII, but we are a republic and not an empire. Emperor Hirohito surrendered aboard the U.S.S. Missouri unconditionally. Instead of annexation we chose to help them rebuild their nations.

Israel's very existence puts it in a completely different context. They are a nation surrounded by others that wish only their destruction. The territories captured in war were staging areas and launch pads for rocket and other attacks against civilian targets. It is precisely due to the small size of the nation, range of modern weaponry, and the resolute hate of her enemies that Israel chose not to return those lands and have borders that were incapable of being defended.

That said, if you read my earlier comment and my old article, Israel had offered to return all of the captured lands in exchange for acknowledgement of their right to exist and for peace. The Arab armies refused, and Israel kept those lands accordingly. That is fact. What would you have Israel do, return land to Arab aggressors that refuse to even acknowledge Jewish humanity, let alone their right to exist as a nation?

It is ironic because if there were to be actual peace in the region, I suspect that the Palestinian people would prosper far more greatly in trade with Israel. Instead they let their "leadership" usurp foreign aid to enrich themselves and to pay terrorist martyrs, while the Palestinian people live in the ghettos you mentioned. Yes Dave, far more black and white rather than gray.

T. Paine said...

"JG, it seems you are biased and do not know the facts. You have succumbed to Palestinian propaganda. There was no such thing as a Palestine country before the other Arab states kicked out their uneducated and poor from their citizenship. If you look at the make up of those now called Palestinians, they come from Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. so the "right of return" is bogus unless, of course, it means the right of the peoples is to return to their countries of origin. (Arafat was Egyptian and he used his corrupt power to keep the monies sent to help refugees for himself. His wife and daughter now live in Paris, richly, off that money that was never theirs.) It was the Jews who were kicked out of Saudi, Egypt, Jordan and every other "functioning" Arab state. It was the Arabs who sided with Hitler and vowed to destroy the Jews (and of course, seize their lands) during WWII in an effort to further enrich themselves long before there was an Israel. AND it was the Arabs who SOLD the land now called Israel to those creating the country of Israel. Those lands were not seized. The land itself was desert and worthless to anyone..." ~ Carrie

Dang it is nice to have someone so well-versed on a topic offer her comments. Kudos to you Carrie in relating the facts and putting the context behind historical events.

Carrie said...

Majormajor: I am learning!

T. Paine, your insights are so intelligently laid out. I love your blog and send you all great wishes for this new year.

Dave Dubya said...

Mr. Paine,

Did I miss the tangent where Carrie said anything about her positions on climate change, Obama being a Kenyan, or supporting neo-Nazis? You and JG rail against Majormajor when he goes off topic, but you do so nearly as often.

She said I was wrong on every issue. Did you miss that? I offered rebuttal, so I was probably correct in my assessment of her. She made no indication otherwise. If she agrees with me on any of those issues, then her blanket accusation was false. Is this complicated? Either way her statement was another far Right false accusation.

You know Trump lies. What do you say to those who believe everything he says? So far, nothing. Same with me being falsely accused of being a commie. Your black and white world again? You abet that lie, whether you care to admit it or not.

I will stop telling the truth about MM when he stops telling lies about me.

Dave Dubya said...

Carrie,

You are learning nothing from MM.

He’s calling me a commie. If you agree with him, you are being just as hateful, indecent and ignorant as he is. (This is not a personal attack. Being falsely called a commie IS a personal attack, in case you are still confused.)

Is Obama an American? Did 3 million “illegals” give Hillary the popular vote? Did Hillary run a child sex ring? Did Hillary give away state secrets to Russians in the Oval Office? Wait, that was your Dear Leader. Are these questions too difficult for you? How you can see decency in those who spawn and repeat those lies is beyond me.

Your adoration of Trump is exactly what a cult of personality is. He is your Messiah to the same degree the Right said Obama was. You have no clue how the rest of the world sees us. He is an embarrassment to the US. Well, everywhere but in Israel, Vietnam, the Philippines, and Russia.

I know you buy into Trump’s scorn for journalism and you distrust all but your echo chamber, but Pew Research reports these findings:

Globally, Trump is much less popular than his predecessor. Across 37 countries we surveyed in spring 2017, a median of just 22% said they have confidence in Trump to do the right thing in world affairs. In contrast, 64% expressed confidence in President Barack Obama in these same 37 nations during the final years of his presidency.

And this shift in American leadership has clearly had an impact on how the world sees the U.S.: A median of 49% now give the U.S. a favorable rating, down from 64% in the Obama era.
Only a few countries have positive views of Trump. In just eight of the 37 nations in the study, roughly half or more say they have confidence in Trump to do the right thing in world affairs. The president gets his best reviews in the Philippines, where 69% express trust in him (although this is down from the 94% Obama registered in 2015). Trump also gets mostly positive ratings in sub-Saharan Africa, as did both Obama and former President George W. Bush. Russia, Israel and Vietnam also have confidence in Trump’s ability to handle international relations.

Trump gets more negative ratings globally than Merkel, Xi or Putin. German Chancellor Angela Merkel is the only world leader included in the survey who receives more positive than negative reviews.

Most say Trump is arrogant, intolerant and dangerous, but a majority also sees him as a strong leader. Survey respondents were read a list of positive and negative characteristics and asked whether each one describes Trump. Around the globe, people tend to associate the American leader with all of the negative characteristics tested: Most say he is arrogant, intolerant and dangerous, while relatively few think of him as well-qualified or as someone who cares about ordinary people.


Dictators are all seen as “strong leaders”. Just as Trump said about Putin and the Philippine thug.

You may put your head back in the sand if I’m giving you too much information or challenging questions. Poor Mr. Paine still believes Saddam had “nukular” aluminum tubes, biological labs, and was in league with al-Qaeda when Bush invaded. False beliefs are strong beliefs.

Just as the conservative belief that Iran is the leading state sponsor of terrorism. They want to go to war over that lie. Did you know bin-Laden and the 9-11 hijackers were almost all Saudis? Did you know Iran hates al-Qaeda and ISIS?

But you are free to ignore my facts and believe Trump’s and MM’s lies. Keep “learning”. But the two of you are in a fanatical minority.

Dave Dubya said...

A Republican I agree with:

"If during the Cold War the Soviets had been able to sell this “deep state” baloney to Americans, to sow distrust of our own FBI and CIA, we would all be speaking Russian by now. The collaborators in Congress must be voted out now!"

- Richard W. Painter‏, White House Ethics Lawyer for George W. Bush Administration

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"JG, it seems you are biased and do not know the facts." ~~ Carrie

The possibility exists -- for both of us.


"You have succumbed to Palestinian propaganda. There was no such thing as a Palestine country before the other Arab states kicked out their uneducated and poor from their citizenship." ~~ Carrie

I'm at a loss as to why you'd make that claim. Also, I never mentioned in my former comment that Palestine was a country, although it is true that in December 2012, UN Secretariat communications replaced this by the term "State of Palestine".


"If you look at the make up of those now called Palestinians, they come from Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. so the 'right of return' is bogus unless, of course, it means the right of the peoples is to return to their countries of origin." ~~ Carrie

"Right of Return" refers to those Palestinians, and their decedents, living in areas annexed through war and occupation by Israel in 1948.


"It was the Jews who were kicked out of Saudi, Egypt, Jordan and every other 'functioning' Arab state. It was the Arabs who sided with Hitler and vowed to destroy the Jews (and of course, seize their lands) during WWII in an effort to further enrich themselves long before there was an Israel." ~~ Carrie

That part of the world has been a revolving door of conquests, settlements, re-conquests and so on. You'll need to be specific as to who kicked the Jews out of the areas you cited, and when.


"AND it was the Arabs who SOLD the land now called Israel to those creating the country of Israel." ~~ Carrie

Please provide citation and evidence of remuneration or compensation.

To be continued...

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"Those lands were not seized. The land itself was desert and worthless to anyone." ~~ Carrie

Sort of like Utah, correct? ;-) If you were forced from your home, I'm sure you wouldn't feel like the land was "worthless".


"When the Jews came to Israel, they worked hard, very hard, to turn the desert into an oasis in the midst of nothing and today Israel thrives -- not because of Arabs, but because of the Jews who worked it." ~~ Carrie

Judaism comes with a green thumb. Honestly, you'll need to cite your evidence. Unfortunately, your assessment of the Arabic people was a backhanded insult if I've ever seen one. Why didn't you just remark that they're lazy?


"Those areas you cite are simply the land taken back what the Arabs seized away." ~~ Carrie

Again, this part of the world has been in turmoil since the dawn of civilization. Please be specific and cite your sources.


"If you look honestly, the so-called Palestinians and their fellow Arabs have contributed nothing to modern civilization besides the oil they sit on." ~~ Carrie

Possibly through your eyes, but that area of the world holds what most scholars consider one of the "cradles of civilization" -- the "Fertile Crescent" and Mesopotamia -- where the use of writing, cities, a class-based society, agriculture, animal husbandry, public buildings, metallurgy, and monumental architecture initially emerged.

So, yes, I honestly looked and I see a pattern of insults coming from you in your denigration of people of Arabic origins and background.


"It is said that the Arabs can lose war after war but Israel cannot afford to lose once. That's because of oil money and people like you who are so bigoted you can't see the truth." ~~ Carrie

You've reaffirmed the authoritarian nature of conservatism -- and especially Trumpism, which you've already praised and revered in this comment section. As your hero is prone to comment, sad.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"Dang it is nice to have someone so well-versed on a topic offer her comments. Kudos to you Carrie in relating the facts and putting the context behind historical events." ~~ T. Paine

Gee willikers, Mr. Paine! I'm not so sure Carrie's "facts" are relatable. They seem more Kellyann Conway-ish, if you catch my drift.

I'll wait to see whether Carrie is able to provide evidence of her claims and cite verifiable resources. Otherwise, there's nothing here except opinions (and you know the old saying about those) and hearsay.

Have a great day!

Majormajor said...

Dave,

If you don't want to be called a commie then stop acting like one.

A paraphrase of one of your comments to me.

Sucks doesn't it.

And where are your answers to my questions? Why you claim you don't have to answer them because they are "slanted". How very totalitarianism.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"JG, I suppose you'd have cheered Hillary as president..." ~~ Carrie

Actually, no. I'm on record as indicating, before the election, that a Clinton presidency would usher in a strong possibility of nuclear war, whereas a Trump administration would probably lead to civil war. I stand by this prediction, although I don't rule out the strong probability of war escalating to the nuclear variety under this president's "strong leadership".

You're barking up the wrong tree, Carrie. Nice try, though. ;-)

Dave Dubya said...

Once again MM fails to discuss the topic and chooses to make it about me. I wonder if he has some little repressed fantasies about me behind his obsession. Or is he simply trolling me to avoid fair discussion?

MM has cited no evidence or words of mine to indicate I am a “commie”. It is a baseless accusation. Mr. Paine would call me out immediately if I called anyone a Nazi, yet he has defended “very fine people” marching with them.

IOKIYAR.

We get it. Double standards and false accusations are not hard to find in the dogma of the far Right.

If you don't want to be called a commie then stop acting like one.

And where have I “acted” like a communist?

Anyone?

Yet he projects that I don’t answer questions. The accused are not allowed answers from the far Right. Just accusations. Carrie’s blanket accusation is another example. No wonder we feel hate behind their words.

Substitute “Jew” for “Leftist” and you will see a striking similarity to.....guess who?

MM’s supporters may feel free to help him find evidence for his accusation.

Or not. Crickets. This tells me you all agree, or want to agree, with him. But more accusations are sure to follow. Once said, it becomes truth to the far Right. We know the tactics.

They seem quite content with baseless accusations and black and white generalizations.

And where are your answers to my questions?

Better yet, where are the questions? I see none directed at me in this thread. Anyone else?

And where has MM answered any questions at all?

Anyone?

When asked, MM won’t even say Obama is an American. Has he, or any con-servative, acknowledged Obama’s tax cuts? HELL NO!

Demonize that damn Kenyan Muslim Commie. This is what feeds hate and ignorance.

But who cares? Accusations and demonization are the tactics of con-servative radicals. This is how authoritarians operate.

This is what the radical Right does. From Trump down to MM.

Lies, hate, smears, personal attacks. Rightists have never been subtle, and rarely honest.

Buh-Lieve me.

This is not a personal attack.

Arabs have contributed nothing to modern civilization

If you ignore the foundations Arabic inventors and mathematicians built when Europe was in the Dark Ages. Now authoritarian theocratic regimes suppress such advances.

And Republicans are following that example in their war on science, public education, and journalism. They wish to replace science, education, and a free press with their corporate friendly political propaganda.

The Trump administration has banned the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from using the words “science-based” or “evidence-based.” Analysts were told they could use instead: The “CDC bases its recommendations on science in consideration with community standards and wishes”.

In other words, they need to be “politically correct” instead of scientifically correct. Just ask the oily climate change deniers.

Trumpists are now actively censoring science. The new American Dark Age is upon us.

Carrie said...

Dave,
1) I did not accuse you of being anything, let alone a "commie."
2) Is your position that Hillary would have made a good president despite all her criminal and selfish, greedy lying activities? OMG!
3) MODERN Arabs, lets say the last 2 centuries, have contributed nothing but grief to the rest of the world.
4) From what I see abroad, Obama was always looked at as a charming, flirtatious do-nothing; He merited a smirk from most and he certainly did nothing to forward the U.S. on peace, the economy, world leadership, human rights or any other matter of great importance. In fact our country went backwards under his admin. I know nothing of his birth country or his citizenship status; there is plenty else to dislike him for.
4) I don't know what you mean by substituting "Jew" for Leftist. (Are you an anti-semite? Ironically many on the Left are.) Most all Communists from Stalin/Lenin on were not Jews. Karl Marx was Jewish but his vision of government (economic and civil equality) was as far away from what the basically totalitarian communists countries now practice as we are from Mars. Jews, because of the Christian and now Muslim (did you know the Jews and Arabs were great friends up to about 100 years ago?) hatred against them (the superstitious belief they are Christ Killers, initiated by a long ago Pope who cited the "perfidious Jews"- a phrase that Pope John eliminated from the liturgy, I believe) has made most Jews sympathetic to the underdog. That is why Jews are always in the forefront of Civil Rights and all human rights causes, value education as priority and are the most charitable peoples around the world, although only about 1% of the population.
5) Believe it or not, I used to be a flaming Liberal. I marched and was even arrested during the Civil Rights movement. I was a member of CORE and SNCC and was anti-Vietnam, Richard Nixon, etc. etc. However, I changed after 9-11. From what I've seen since 9-11 the Left is the most vicious, name-calling, divisive group -- inciting violence and fighting dirty. I disagree with so many Left positions and spokespeople that I couldn't go along with the Left anymore. They have no workable solutions to anything so they resort to lies and subterfuge. Just look at their Congressional leaders, the "women's movement" the anti-abortion crowd, the BLM movement, Soros' supported organizations, etc.
6) I am a writer, journalist and corporate marketer by profession so I know when I say this: most polls are skewed. You can make numbers say anything just as the pollsters can pre-select any group they want to poll to get the responses they want. I believe the anti-Trump #s that are spewed are distorted by the vicious anti-Trump campaign the media has had ever since their very unlikeable, corrupt candidate lost. They do not cover anything good he does and, smirking, they cover Diet Cokes and ice cream eating; they deflect from the positive by focusing on any negative they can find. How unlike their coverage of Obama who was a laughing stock in the world ever since he got a Nobel Prize for nothing and started his apology tours. Trump has a list of accomplishments for 2017 that no other modern president can match. (I don't like his tweets either, but I see the need for him to combat the broadcast lies and innuendos about him in the MSM. He is dumb -- like a fox as the expressions goes.)

Done and Out!

OK, I'll stop now. This subject is finished for me. Ad nauseam........

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"I know nothing of [Obama's] birth country or his citizen status..." ~~ Carrie

Hmm... Either you're admitting you're a birther or, for some reason - and I'll extend the benefit of the doubt - you're saying you know absolutely nothing about the United States of America.

Which is It? 🤔

T. Paine said...

Dave, I don't know why every conversation with you has to be so antagonistic. If someone says something critical about Obama, they are "blaming the black man". If someone praises Trump for the good things he has done, they are "tiki torch bearing authoritarian supporters". If someone disagrees with a certain Leftist ideal they are a "con-servative" and a part of the "C.R.A.P.".

It is not an all or nothing thing with me, and I suspect also for Carrie, and even Majormajor too. For example, I agree with a lot of the environmental protection legislation. I thought President Obama's expansion of Bears Ears and the Grand Escalante Staircase monuments was a good thing overall. I look at issues individually, and yet you continuously see my generally conservative positions and therefore assume I agree with everything the Republicans and Trump does, when it absolutely is not so.

Any criticism of a Leftist ideal or elected official is automatically construed as "hateful" and a personal attack on you it would seem. You then denigrate and condescend to Carry with, "Are these questions too difficult for you? How you can see decency in those who spawn and repeat those lies is beyond me." You don't know her from Adam. Further, I'd venture she is probably smarter, far more decent, and certainly more versed on this topic than all of us here.

Do I think you are a "commie"? No. I think you are a leftist progressive. Does that mean you share some affection for socialistic/communistic practices or ideas? Yep, by your own admission in the past. I am certain Majormajor called you a "commie" and meant it as a pejorative. I look at the word communist and see it as a descriptive label of one's ideals. They are ideals I vehemently disagree with, but I don't consider it an insult any more than I do when I am called and indeed self-identify as a free-market capitalist.

I know you, JG, and Majormajor have long had a hate-hate relationship. I know better than to think that is going to change. I don't have the time or inclination to call out everything he says in the extreme against you any more than I do when you do so towards him. That said, there have indeed been times when I have said to both of you that you were over the top or out of line.

Seriously, I think you simply love to be angry at anyone that has the temerity to disagree with your stances.

Oh, and for the record, I did not believe that Saddam had “nukular” aluminum tubes. I have provided evidence to you in the past, multiple times, of Saddam's collusion with al Qaida. You disputed the notion and the sources, so of course you discount it.

"Just as the conservative belief that Iran is the leading state sponsor of terrorism." ~ Dubya

Not just a belief, Dave. It is documented and proven that they are the leading STATE sponsor of terrorism in the world. It was even designated so by President Obama's own State Department, and yet he dangerously and foolishly decided to strengthen this terroristic regime with his give-a-way deal. And yes, I know that Iran hates ISIS and the Saudis. It is because of the age old fight between Sunni and Shia Islam. I was over there in Desert Storm. I am a student of the region, its politics, and its history. I am not simply getting my information from political pundits and leftist talking points.

I'm certain that all of this will be construed as a personal attack as well.

Dave Dubya said...

Carrie,

Apparently your marketing skills surpass your reading skills.

Nowhere did I say you accused me of being a commie. You just went along with it by saying you were “learning”. You did say I was wrong on every issue. I disagree. YOU are absolutist and wrong and possibly bigoted in such a claim.

Cite ONE law Hillary broke. Mr. Paine has been ignoring this request for years. Just LOCK HER UP!

I have no love for Hillary, but I despise fascists who want to lock people up without trial or conviction of a crime.

Nowhere have I said Hillary would make a good president. Again your reading skills are lacking. Now that you have gone to the Right, you seem to have it all figured out and can ignore what others say.

“Obama certainly did nothing to forward the U.S. on peace, the economy, world leadership, human rights or any other matter of great importance. In fact our country went backwards under his admin. I know nothing of his birth country or his citizenship status; there is plenty else to dislike him for.”

No evidence cited.

Good writers know it is grammatically incorrect to end a sentence with a preposition. Just sayin. ;-)

Do you remember the economy Bush left Obama? Apparently not. Did you know Obama cut taxes for the middle class? Apparently not. Do you know Obama is an American? Apparently not.

So you agree with the racist birtherism of Trump. Got it. How Aryan of you to agree with the alt-Right birthers. Now civil rights and equality are bad. BLM is a racist hate group, etc.

”I don't know what you mean by substituting "Jew" for Leftist”.

Of course you don’t.

MODERN Arabs, lets say the last 2 centuries, have contributed nothing but grief to the rest of the world.

Let’s try it again. Substitute “Jews” for “Arabs” and you will see a striking similarity to.....guess who?

”Obama who was a laughing stock in the world”..”apology tours”, blah, blah, cuz Hannity, Limbaugh, Alex Jones said so.

And how do you know this? Again, accusations with no evidence. No wonder you got tired of being liberal and believe the worst liar ever to desecrate the White House.

Trump has a list of accomplishments for 2017 that no other modern president can match.

Gee, this must be true because Dear Leader said so. No evidence cited.

Do we see a pattern here? All beliefs, no facts.

I see the need for him to combat the broadcast lies and innuendos about him in the MSM.

Once again, no evidence is cited. I understand. You and Mr. Paine, and MM are very good at ignoring Trump’s thousands of lies. It just “feels” so good to trust and believe Dear Leader.

Very cultish.

It is interesting you protested Nixon. Why? Is it because he lied, obstructed justice, fired a prosecutor, and politicized the Justice Department? I guess that stuff is all good, now that Dear Leader does it. Because of 9-11?

I changed after 9-11. From what I've seen since 9-11 the Left is the most vicious, name-calling, divisive group -- inciting violence and fighting dirty.

Heather Heyer’s family would disagree. Do I need to educate you about who she was and how she died? “Unite the Right” and their “very fine people” killed her.

Bush started a damn war based on lies, killed uncounted thousands of Muslims, thousands of Americans, and spawned ISIS, but the “left” is divisive and inciting violence?
My goodness. Your art of projection is very far Right.

When did civil rights stop mattering? Oh, that’s right. 9-11. I’m getting the feeling you hate Muslims. And now liberals. And maybe Blacks.

You are in the minority of true believers.

This is not a personal attack, for I'm sure you are very nice person, who just happens to hate liberals and disagree with most Americans about Trump.

T. Paine said...

"White House Ethics Lawyer"? Now that is an oxymoron if I have ever heard one! :)

"Substitute 'Jew' for 'Leftist' and you will see a striking similarity to.....guess who?" ~ Mr. Dubya

Okay, I'll venture a guess... Dave Dubya and JG! They evidently think those evil Zionist Jews are illegally occupying land and oppressing the poor innocent Palestinians while claiming the ancient Jewish city of Jerusalem as their nation's capital. Hmmm... who else falsely blamed and mis-characterized the Jewish race from history?

Will you PLEASE flipping quit your nonsense now, sir?

Jerry Critter said...

Carrie — “... I used to be a flaming Liberal...However, I changed after 9-11.”

It makes me very sad to see you so consumed with hate. The purpose of terrorism is to get us to change our behavior and beliefs. The terrorists have won with you. As our “Leader” would so eloquently say, “So sad”.

Dave Dubya said...

Mr. Paine.

I am a leftist progressive in many ways. I am also a patriotic, firearm-owning, investor in the market, just like many of your “true conservatives”. Got a label for me now? Feel free to say I am "liberal".

But you are suggesting a false equivalence with your “socialistic/communistic” term. If you are unable to separate the two, then you have no standing to define me, or either term for that matter.

I support self rule by democratic representation. I support fair and accessible voting rights, equality, civil rights, equal justice under law, civil liberties and the Constitutional regulation of commerce and provision for general welfare. Is this what you call "leftism"?

Believe it or not, I have respect for many conservative values. Self sufficiency, honest pay for honest work, care for the less fortunate, the sick, the elderly, etc. I even embrace the “real Christian values” in the “two Commandments” and try to love my fellow man, no matter their ignorance and hate for me.

I understand why people oppose abortion. I hate it, and wish there was never a need for it. I just happen to draw the line on government power to force a rape victim to bear his child. I also support better sex education and access to birth control to reduce abortions. It sickens me when the haters accuse me of being “pro-abortion” like it’s something I advocate. People, like the world, are not black and white.

I respect accountability and evidence based reasoning and discussion. When offered lies and false beliefs stated as facts, I most certainly will call that out as con-servatism. When liberals make false claims, I will call that out as well. I attempt to find the truth, and refuse to accept without question any political or corporate propaganda. Democrats have been wrong too.

Obama’s claim about “keeping your doctor” and the costs are just one example.

The fact you and your fellow ideologues cannot even acknowledge Obama’s tax cuts illustrates the difference between our world views. The fact Carrie, and millions of other duped Americans, cannot admit Obama is an American is deplorable. The fact, not Carrie. Tell me what better word to use, and I will consider it. Like the idea of “very fine people” marching with Nazis, the ignorance behind this fact is troubling. Such ignorance on such a large scale reeks of hate and racism. Thus, my use of the dreaded “Black guy” term.

"Substitute 'Jew' for 'Leftist' and you will see a striking similarity to.....guess who?"
Will you PLEASE flipping quit your nonsense now, sir?


It only appears to be nonsense to you. Jews would understand immediately. Others may also get my point of addressing generalized demonization of an entire class, political persuasion, religion, or culture.

You cannot get more divisive than framing everything as black and white.

Majormajor said...

"Dave, I don't know why every conversation with you has to be so antagonistic. If someone says something critical about Obama, they are "blaming the black man". If someone praises Trump for the good things he has done, they are "tiki torch bearing authoritarian supporters". If someone disagrees with a certain Leftist ideal they are a "con-servative" and a part of the "C.R.A.P.". "

And that folks is the truth about Dave..post after post, at the same time refusing to answer any question because he is, in his mind above being questioned. All the while holding others to his questions. His dogma is liken to Antifa, whom he never finds fault with, yet when he gets push back, he whines about being attacked. Hiding behind the cloak of victimhood, yet removes posts from his blog that makes him "uncomfortable".


Example: Leftist policy's are so good they have to be mandated, offends him, he responses do not find fault with that statement but the person who posted it. When ever possible he plays the raced card, because calling a person a racist ends most conversations on the spot.

There is no debate with Dave, he only wants to lecture, and his lectures are almost word from word the same from post to post. Mr. Paine touched on just a few of his favorites.

He is such an extreme leftist that calling him commie is an understatement. His support for the non democratic states of the middle east is legionary. In the face of history he denies Nazism was socialistic. Big government is his God, and government spending is his manna.

Can he offer any proof to deny any of this? I doubt it.

Majormajor said...

Dave,

"I even embrace the “real Christian values” in the “two Commandments”"

What are the two Commandments?

TB3 said...

MM,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commandment

The ones Jesus actually talked about, I imagine.

TB3 said...

"In the face of history he denies Nazism was socialistic."

Please stop trying to perpetuate this meme. It's not true. It's never been true. Just because the word 'Socialist' is in their name, doesn't make it socialist. National Socialism was an attept to re-define socialism as a national movement. Just cause Burger King wants to sell me a Veggie Burger, doesn't actually make it a burger. I know it's in the name, but it's not a burger.

Just stop. People that make that argument just make themselves look silly and ill-informed.

Also, guys? Everyone? Can we avoid talking about Nazis and Nazism in a comment thread discussing Israel? Poor taste.

Dave Dubya said...

Does anyone here know what MM's "question" is?

Is the Democratic Republic of North Korea a democratic republic in MM's mind?

LOL!

No history students here.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"Is the Democratic Republic of North Korea a democratic republic in [Chuck's] mind?" ~~ Dave Dubya

Must be, Dave, just as I'm guessing he thinks the Democratic Republic of Vietnam was also! LOL

Sorry...have no idea what "question" he's waiting to have answered.

T. Paine said...

"Cite ONE law Hillary broke. Mr. Paine has been ignoring this request for years. Just LOCK HER UP!" ~ Dubya

Really? It seems to me I have given you a list many times. Should I cite unethical or just illegal situations involving her? Let's just keep it to illegal so the list doesn't become so unwieldy.

1. Covering up for the sexual harassment and assaults by her husband with her "bimbo eruption squads". Collusion and aiding and abetting after the fact are illegal. (Of course this was before she said women assault victims should be believed. Perhaps she meant unless they were the victims of her husband.)

2. She conducted "secret" State Department business as per the FBI on a private email account on a server stored in her residence. This not only violated the law but endangered national security. And spare me the crap that Republicans did it too. First, it was not as reckless and second, it still is breaking the law no matter who did it before Hillary.

3. How about Hillary's subpoenaed Rose Law Firm billing records that were missing and later found by others in the White House residence? Obstruction of justice and contempt of court are crimes.

4. Before Bill Clinton left the White House in 2001, he granted numerous controversial pardons – including to convicted tax evader Marc Rich, whose wife made significant contributions to Hillary’s 2000 Senate campaign and the Clinton presidential library. Accepting bribes is a crime. You would be outraged if Bush did this. I know... IOKIYAD.

5. Lets not forget the millions of dollars raised at the now defunct Clinton Foundation. Every foreign government and businessman wanting favor donated money of which huge amounts went for the Clinton's private use, including paying for Chelsea's wedding. This all appears as quid pro quos, which is illegal and the use of "charitable funds" for private use is fraud.

6. And then there is her role in Bengahzi. The DOD confirmed that they knew almost immediately that the attack was carried out by al-Qaida and Muslim Brotherhood factions. Despite this, Hillary lied and said it was because of an unknown internet video, the maker of which was unjustly jailed.

There are literally dozens of accounts of lawlessness and unethical behavior that Hillary is associated with and which you refuse to accept. All the while you accuse Trump, Bush and other Republicans of crimes with far less credible evidence than I have given you here. It doesn't matter though because she is a progressive, right?

"Good writers know it is grammatically incorrect to end a sentence with a preposition. Just sayin." ~ Dubya

Wow, you are being so petty. Good writers also don't use slang... "just sayin".

"So you agree with the racist birtherism of Trump. Got it. How Aryan of you to agree with the alt-Right birthers. Now civil rights and equality are bad. BLM is a racist hate group, etc." ~ Dubya

I read Carrie's comments and I don't see her saying she was agreeing with "birtherism" or any of your other charges. How antifa of you! I guess it is a crime to be conservative now. Some people are more equal than others, right?

And you go on with other slurs, innuendo, and accusations. I am tired of even wasting my time. The fact that I responded yet again to your "demands" about Hillary's crimes was frankly a waste of time. I am tired of your accusations, name-calling, and demonization while crying like a snowflake that you are the one being attacked. It is hard to take you seriously, sir.

I think I will spend my time responding with more reasonable people for awhile. I am sure that will anger you and elicit another tantrum. I'll simply sit back and laugh at your childish and bullying behavior, sir.

T. Paine said...

"It makes me very sad to see you so consumed with hate. The purpose of terrorism is to get us to change our behavior and beliefs. The terrorists have won with you. As our 'Leader' would so eloquently say, 'So sad'." ~ Jerry

I don't think the terrorists were trying to "change our beliefs" so that we become more condemning of their terrorist behavior and agree to the just prosecution of war against them. If some good Americans among us went from making excuses and explaining away terrorism with any number of ridiculous theories to actually wanting to see Islamic extremism eradicated, then I think that is growth; it isn't "sad" change, my friend.

T. Paine said...

Dave, I acknowledge President Obama's payroll tax cuts. That said, they were nothing compared to the help that families will get from President Trump's tax cuts, which you have characterized as a give away to the rich and corporations.

"Substitute 'Jew' for 'Leftist' and you will see a striking similarity to.....guess who?" ~ Dubya

"...Will you PLEASE flipping quit your nonsense now, sir?" T. Paine

"It only appears to be nonsense to you. Jews would understand immediately. Others may also get my point of addressing generalized demonization of an entire class, political persuasion, religion, or culture. You cannot get more divisive than framing everything as black and white." ~ Dubya

Yep. Unless Carrie is Jewish.

And I think it is far more divisive to characterize the whole world as gray and never acknowledging an objective right and wrong as per Judeo-Christian belief and natural law as a guide to one's own moral compass, sir.

T. Paine said...

Majormajor, while there is some hyperbole in your second to the last comment, there is much fact in it. It does become tiresome when our friend, Mr. Dubya, always retreats to the same old memes and baseless accusations while accusing others of precisely what he has been doing while claiming the mantle of victimhood.

"Can we avoid talking about Nazis and Nazism in a comment thread discussing Israel? Poor taste." ~ TB3

Yes sir, it is poor taste. Sadly it is absolutely no different than the attitude many that most Palestinians have towards Israel and the Jewish people though, my friend.

Dave Dubya said...

Mr. Paine.

Obama cut taxes? First I’ve heard from you on that. But it was still bad, right?

“crying like a snowflake that you are the one being attacked”

No, that would be crying like a commie. I’m just going to declare “Dubya”s Law” where cons revert to their “red card” when cornered by their lies and hate.

You still cannot cite a single crime she committed, or law she broke.

No woman in history has been investigated and interrogated as much as Hillary. If no charges were brought, either she is the world’s greatest criminal mastermind, or Republicans are all incompetent ideological idiots.

Take your pick.

Your opinions don’t count as facts. Once again that is all you offer. But it feeeeels soooo good to say “lock her up”, doesn’t it?

Is grabbing a woman’s crotch a crime in your black and white world? Just wondering. For a defender of decency and the law, you don’t seem bothered by it. Why is that?

Lets not forget the millions of dollars raised at the now defunct Clinton Foundation.

I could say this is a lie, but your ignorance is allowed. It feeeeels good to say “defunct”, doesn’t it?

Every foreign government and businessman wanting favor donated money of which huge amounts went for the Clinton's private use, including paying for Chelsea's wedding.

Because one person made the accusation. No proof. That means it’s a “fact” in your black and white world.

This all appears as quid pro quos, which is illegal and the use of "charitable funds" for private use is fraud.

No evidence cited. (Do we see a pattern yet?)

I don’t like the Clintons, but I don’t suffer from a blinding “Clinton Derangement Syndrome”.

Say, what do you know about the Trump Foundation? How about Trump’s huge portrait from the Trump Foundation? Never mind, right?

”I read Carrie's comments and I don't see her saying she was agreeing with "birtherism" or any of your other charges. How antifa of you!”

I did read Carrie’s statements:

“I am a writer, journalist and corporate marketer by profession”

And I’m not. Just sayin’.

“I know nothing of his birth country or his citizenship status”

Good God. This is either admitting ignorance or showing racism. ‘Nuff said.

As your sidekick said about me, “He is such an extreme leftist that calling him commie is an understatement. His support for the non democratic states of the middle east is legionary. In the face of history he denies Nazism was socialistic. Big government is his God, and government spending is his manna. Can he offer any proof to deny any of this? I doubt it.”

Despite your claim “there is much fact in it”, it is all opinion. And false. Even my “legionary” middle east adventures attacking Fort Zinderneuf. “Allah Akbar!” Right? Demonize much?

I also know nothing of Carrie’s, yours, or MM’s membership in the Ku Klux Klan.

“Can you offer any proof to deny any of this? I doubt it.”

You probably miss my point entirely. But there is much fact in it.

And I think it is far more divisive to characterize the whole world as gray and never acknowledging an objective right and wrong as per Judeo-Christian belief and natural law as a guide to one's own moral compass, sir.

Perhaps all your unfounded accusations and opinions stated as facts make you weary.

None of you have disproven any of my statements, but wow, am I ever getting a load of personal accusations.

It is wrong to lie, and to hate based on lies. Period. But IOKIYAR.

You seem to be quite observant. What was MM’s “question” again?

Why can’t I get an answer? Or even the question?

You people are amazing.

Carrie said...

Dave, some things ARE black and white. The muddy water is stirred when individuals are encouraged to form their own values, to be anything they'd like and to do whatever makes them happy. But there are absolutes in life just as there are places for compromise.

To someone's point, don't know if that was you about being a racist because I said I don't know Obama's origins or citizenship -- I said that because it simply doesn't matter at this point and it's been debated ad nauseam; it's not worth continuing so I just moved on... Not only am I not KKK, I am horrified by them. Some years ago driving to Florida I saw a billboard put up by the KKK saying if you are Black Catholic or "a Jew"( perjorative), you are not welcome. It was appalling and shocking to this Northern gal and I couldn't wait to get "out of there."

As for Hillary, disregarding a Congressional subpoena by destroying 30,000 emails that were part of the subpoena is a crime, even if they were (ha, ha) about Chelsea's wedding and tennis. I have no proof other than instinct that those 30K were to do with the "Foundation" *that, by the way gave only 15% of its take to actual charity) and access to Hillary and others in important positions. The Clintons have been renowned during their official times to love money, and other involvements of theirs involve money issues from the Rose Law firm, investments, etc. through their adult lives.

As for my grammar, I do know not to end a sentence with a proposition but we writers sometimes step aside from grammatical structure to make a point.

Alright, now it's truly over and out!

Carrie said...

Hey, Jerry. I don't believe the purpose of terrorism is as innocuous as you say -- to change our beliefs, etc. I believe their purpose is to control us. conquer us or kill us. I've thought of what is happening since 9-11 as a modern crusade and I hold to that. It is extremism at its height and attracts the worst of any society into its midst, those who have nothing to lose and see themselves on a mission guided by the ferocity of the leaders. I know people who have gone to the Middle East and Israel and returned to say that the Arabs don't really need to fight. The birth rate is so much higher than in any other culture, esp. Israel where there is 1.5 birds per couple and Europe and now the U.S., they just need to wait another generation and their numbers alone will do the trick!

Carrie said...

Not birds -- I meant babies! Sorry...

Majormajor said...

TB3 thanks for answering my question to Dave that he can't seem to remember my asking. Typical of Dave to "forget".

"In the face of history he denies Nazism was socialistic."

"Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?" "Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common wealth. Communism is not Socialism."
Interview of Adolf Hitler by George Sylvester Viereck took place in 1923.

"Communism is not socialism", the same claim that leftist like Dave make today.


“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”

Adolf Hitler.

Sounds like today's socialists doesn't it?

Carrie, see what I mean lecturing? I hope you come back and post again some day.

Jerry Critter said...

Carrie — “l don't believe the purpose of terrorism is as innocuous as you say -- to change our beliefs, etc.”

Perhaps that’s because they succeeded with you on that level.

Dave Dubya said...

Major,

I see you want to talk about Hitler and Nazis again. Good.

I am a history student. The two periods I have studied the most are the American Civil War, (Yes, it was about slavery.) and WW II. (No, Nazis were not liberal socialists. They were far Right Nationalists. They were racists, police state authoritarians, and belligerent militarists. And they didn’t ban guns. They banned Jews having guns.)

Thank you for reminding us your cult thinks Hitler was a liberal. It must FEEEEL really good to believe that, amirite?

You guys really do love your “Big Lies” don’t you?

True to form, you got it wrong, Sport.

Those “We are socialists....” words you quoted were from a pamphlet written by Gregor Strasser .

He was a Nazi, but not for long.

Look what else he said from the same pamphlet:

The spirit of our National Socialist idea has to overpower the spirit of liberalism and false democracy if there is to be a third Reich at all! Deeply rooted in organic life, we have realized that the false belief in the equality of man is the deadly threat with which liberalism destroys people and nation, culture and morals. violating the deepest levels of our being!

He’s talking about liberals now. “Nazis good. Liberals and equality bad.” Got it, Sport?

Here’s what we learn from a biography of Strasser:

“...He opposed Hitler’s courting of big business as well as his anti-Semitism and instead favoured radical social reforms along socialist lines. He finally resigned his party offices in 1932... He was murdered on Hitler’s orders during the [Ernst] Röhm purge of 1934.”

Hitler’s courting of big business was a real thing. And he rewarded them with boom times building the military. He eventually gave them slave labor. No more unions. Yippeee! Right, Major? Not very “Leftist” was it?

No. It wasn’t.. (Since you don’t answer questions, I’ll do it for you. You’re welcome.)

There we have it. Hitler killed the out-of-favor Nazi, not for attacking liberals and equality, but for disagreeing with Hitler, saying bad things about capitalism, and wanting socialist reforms.

As long as you’re on a Hitler kick, here’s one special quote from the Fuhrer directly to your heart.

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolph Hitler "My New World Order" - Proclamation to the German Nation, Berlin, February 1, 1933

You also emulate the Nazi tactic of attacking the press with slogans like “Lügenpresse”, or lying press, or fake news, or liberal media. Journalism has always been the enemy of authoritarians.

Since you apparently agree with Hitler in the number of ways shown above, I have to suspect you have a tiki torch in your garage.

“Can you offer any proof to deny any of this? I doubt it.”


*

*

*

Now, what was your question?

T. Paine said...

Dave, I haven't called you a commie, as you acknowledged. That said, I have not "played the red card". Evidently that has not stopped you from playing the race card every. chance. you. get!

And yes, Hillary for whatever reason has gotten away with most of her lawlessness thus far and the Republicans and authorities investigating her are incompetent or corrupt because they continue to allow her to do so. Again, if Bush had done 1/10th of the things she had, you would be screaming from the rafters, and rightly so. Instead you lie about him prosecuting a war based on lies, when he had world opinion and a bipartisan congress supporting the Iraq war. I guess that doesn't fit your talking points though, sir. Your opinions don't count as facts, Dave, but I bet it feels soooo good to say it.

Further, for all of the damn good it will do when you are in such "troll mode", I have said that I was disgusted by and don't condone Trump's illegal behavior when it came to his boorish tape recanting his sexual exploits. It is one of the reasons why I didn't vote for him, if you will recall. You still voted for the mastermind corrupt criminal Hillary though, didn't you?

"It is wrong to lie, and to hate based on lies. Period." ~ Dubya

Then if you know what you are doing is wrong, why do you still persist?

T. Paine said...

Carrie, I apologize for Dave Dubya's horrible unsubstantiated accusations of racism. This is his fall-back play when he cannot argue the facts. He plays the race card at the most unusual, unrelated, and meaningless times. Because I disagreed with President Obama on many of his policies in the past, I obviously "hated the black man" according to Dave. Because I pointed out much of the racism and violence done by some folks associated with BLM, I am obviously a racist. Because I give praise to President Trump on policies with which I agree, I am a racist. Because I am not a bed-wetting-militant Leftist agreeing with all of Dave's unsubstantiated opinions, I am a racist. Oops! I guess he did say that he didn't think I was a racist, but just shared in their racist characteristics... a distinction without a difference, I would say.

Anyway, if you traverse websites that discuss politics and such, you are bound to run into such people along the way that really aren't interested in debating ideas but rather simply want to burn the place down until everyone agrees with them. It is probably good they are not in power, as they would probably do something very un-democratic, like send us to "re-education camps" so that we could be purged of our racist and authoritarian ways. Ironic, huh?

T. Paine said...

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.” ~ Adolf Hitler

"Sounds like today's socialists doesn't it?" ~ Majormajor

It does indeed, Majormajor. Good quotation.

T. Paine said...

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolph Hitler "My New World Order" - Proclamation to the German Nation, Berlin, February 1, 1933

Take away for the moment that it was the leader of the evil Nazi bastards that proclaimed this insincerely and without true intent and read the words stated and tell me what you find offensive about this, Dave?

Do you despise government fostering a national spirit of unity and cooperation among its citizens? Do you hate the basic principles of the founding of OUR nation of all men being created equal with inalienable rights? Or perhaps you despise true Christianity if only it were practiced as Christ instructed as the foundation of national morality? Maybe you have issues with the nuclear family as the basis for national life?

The message of the proclamation was a good one, albeit it certainly was not carried out in the evil and fascist regime this way. The messenger was evil. What was said was good. Too bad that the Nazi's didn't mean it, and then you take good words as a cudgel to try and equate conservatism with Nazism. Sad.

Dave Dubya said...

Mr. Paine,

You didn't call me a commie directly. You backhandedly did so by conflating "socialism/communism" and tagging me with both.

Yes, you did. If I'm in "troll mode" you are in "false accusation and radical Right BS mode". I support my points with evidence as you hurl falsehoods, accusations, and beliefs.

If ANY Democrat said and did one tenth of what Trump has, he would be impeached and condemned. He would never have been elected. Authoritarians rally behind their leaders. It's amazing how easily you dismiss his boasting of criminal sexual conduct and his multiple accusers.

IOKIYAR.

It's amazing you think Trump is qualified to be president. But he is an authoritarian so, authoritarian followers will believe his lies. (Since you lack the courage or integrity to tell your conservative friends Trump is a liar, I must conclude you to be among the true believers, or morally compromised.)

He fired Comey to get rid of the investigation. And bragged to RUSSIANS IN THE OVAL OFFICE about it! Just like Nixon, that was obstruction of justice.

Not a peep from you about that one. What if Hillary had done that? Yeah, we get it. IOKIYAR.

You are are Trumpist if you can't see that fact. Trump is above the law to his cult. You have made your choice to believe a criminal authoritarian, so spare me your sanctimonious lectures. You probably buy into the FOX/Alex Jones "deep state" conspiracy against your Dear Leader and Messiah.

So you still believe the lies about Nukular aluminum tubes, Saddam's "biological labs" and ties to al-Qaeda that have all been shown to be false. It doesn't matter if some, not the majority of, democrats bought the lies. They were moral cowards pandering for reelection when the nation was duped into thinking Saddam had something to do with 9-11. He didn't, but we can't tell the cult that fact. It wasn't until after the invasion, Bush finally admitted Saddam didn't have anything to do with 9-11.

So go ahead, get angry for my telling the truth, of that's who you really are.

This is con-servatism. False beliefs and scorn for those who know the truth. No wonder you get so angry.

I dare you to read the list of the CULT beliefs at my blog.

You are probably afraid to, because you share so many of those beliefs.

Carrie can't even admit Obama is an American. But Hillary is the devil and Trump is the Messiah. Got it.

Now what was MM's question for me? Did you see it?

Did you see me disprove his damn LIE? Or do you believe him? You won't say. Why? You dare not agree with the truth when your cult has other ideas. It's that simple.

You really hate it when your lies and false beliefs, or your hateful sidekick's, are exposed. I get it.

If I say something false and it is shown to be so, I accept reality. You react with anger and accusation.

Watch how MM reacts to his Hitler BS. He is a liar and you are afraid to see it, because what you fear most is not being wrong, but liberals being right. Yes, there is a difference between right and wrong.

You people amaze me. Authoritarian personalities....this is why we have Trump.


Dave Dubya said...

Mr. Paine,

I'm disappointed you have utterly missed my point on Hitler wrapping his evil in Christianity.

Trumps "favorite book" is the Bible too. Do you believe that?

T. Paine said...

Wow. Dave, your hate is so great that evidently it has completely obscured your vision or destroyed your reading comprehension. I am not going to waste my time feeding the indignant troll any more today. You spout lies and hate and then turn around and accuse others of doing so. If you truly believe that what I and other conservatives say are lies and hateful, then why do you bother coming here. Wouldn't your time be better spent at the Daily Kos or some other left-wing echo chamber where you can have your socialistic beliefs confirmed? I think it is simply because you love to stoke the flames and try to piss off those with whom you disagree. You are seemingly incapable of discussing anything without nastiness anymore.

As for me, I have wasted soooo much time addressing your insistent arrogant and condescending questions and providing you proof and answers all to be accused of the same things over and over again. I am not angry at you. I actually pity you, sir. I just won't waste any more time on you for now. It serves no purpose.

One last thing. I am disappointed that you utterly missed my point on Hitler and Christianity. If Hitler would have been serious about his proclamation and actually lived out an authentic Christian faith, his atrocities would never have occurred. The message was good. The messenger and his true intentions were evil. While Trump is a boor and I don't condone much of his personal behavior, he certainly isn't Hitler... or a bible reader either, I suspect.

Jerry Critter said...

TP —“If Hitler would have been serious about his proclamation and actually lived out an authentic Christian faith,...”

Why not apply the same reasoning to Hitler’s statement, “We are socialists,...”?

Shouldn’t you be more consistent and look at what he did, not what he says?

T. Paine said...

Jerry, that is a fair point, sir. And while Hitler was hardly a capitalist, he did not follow all of the dictates of socialism either. In that regard, I will concede your point.

Majormajor said...

Mr. Paine,

Carrie's post has torn off the fake civility of Dave and exposed the true hate of a leftist. He is a great example of "Authoritarian personalities".

TB3 said...

MM,

Your constant antagonism isn't helpful or productive.

Majormajor said...

TB3

Really? Is Dave that much of a snowflake? He's a correction officer in the state of Michigan for cripes sake and he can't take it when people point out the failures of his beliefs?
Please.

Majormajor said...

TB3,

Last year I wished Dave a Merry Christmas and a wonderful New Year. His response was hate filled, mocking and dismissive to say the least.

Now if that is what you call "antagonism" then Dave really is a snowflake of the first degree. Keep in mind that he works for the Michigan Corrections dept, and if he can't take it here, then how does he handle the antagonism at work?

Dave's problem is he is an authoritarian leftist, and as at his job can book nothing but total submission to his orders and beliefs.

Dave Dubya said...

Jerry,
The socialist quote was NOT Hitlers. Never trust MM's word on anything. But you know that.

MM,

Happy New Year! I hope you had a wonderful Christmas. Jesus and I love you, no matter how uninformed and angry you are.


Mr. Paine,

Your reactionary mind is at work again.

You could have said, “Gee Dave, MM was wrong with his lie about Hitler. Thank you for educating us on the facts”.

Instead I get lectured about Hitler. MM, like Trump, is honest as the day is long apparently.

And I get accused of a “horrible unsubstantiated accusations of racism” regarding Carrie’s ignorance, NOT RACISM. This is how cons make unfounded accusations. If you were honest you would quote my “accusation”. You didn’t. Notice a pattern here? No, you probably don’t, and don’t even care to see it.

It was either ignorance or racism, since millions of racist Trumpists think Obama is not an American. This is why good people like Carrie can be ignorant about something so basic. The “Black President can’t be American” is just what Trump and his racist followers want to her to believe.

You are abetting this Trumpist hate and ignorance by this unfounded accusation, and refusal to state Obama is a US citizen.

Why do you wish to keep Carrie in ignorance? Hmmm. Ignorance is strength, as Orwell wrote. This is also why you refuse to admit Trump is a racist liar and MM is uninformed. You even reinforced his “liberal Nazi” crap. How is this not promoting his hate and ignorance?

I can’t help but notice your utter disregard of my statement of agreement with several conservative values. Does that not fit your accusation mentality, so more demonization is required?

Carrie,

I did not say you are a racist. I said you are a very nice person, in fact.

You said this, “I know nothing of his birth country or his citizenship status; there is plenty else to dislike him for.”

If you “know nothing” that would be ignorance by definition. It also reflects being influenced by the radical Right’s and Trump’s racist birtherism. When we dislike someone enough, we tend to believe the worst about them. Is this not true? You needn’t respond. Just consider this point fairly. Look at how my facts are ignored and I’m compared to Nazis and being “wrong on every issue”.

You have admitted to ignorance. You are wrong on this issue. Liberals are right. Mr. Paine wants to frame me, accusing you of racism. This is how the radical Right operates. Accuse without evidence.

See the pattern yet? You needn’t respond. Just consider this point fairly.

Now watch me be accused of hate and personal attacks for stating the truth. I expect nothing less from a reactionary mentality.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave, you have made very valid points. The one thing I've noticed about Mr. Paine's responses over the years is that he never quotes, verbatim, what you or I address. Instead, he makes very broad and condensating proclamations about how you are, or how I am, or how Obama is, or how liberals are, etc., etc., etc. When I attempt to have meaningful dialog with him, by breaking down his comments by the paragraph or even by the sentence, he mostly ignores my questions, remarks and statements until I press him for a response. Even then, I'm usually ignored. Even Carrie, and the village idiot take the same approach. Total silence.

I agree with you. Conservatives don't want to be backed into a corner. When they have been, they're stymied and ignore the questioner - or distract and project, as Mr. Paine has been doing throughout this thread. The deer-in-headlights meme describes them perfectly.

Carrie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Carrie said...

You also emulate the Nazi tactic of attacking the press with slogans like “Lügenpresse”, or lying press, or fake news, or liberal media. Journalism has always been the enemy of authoritarian."
Dave, the current U.S. press does drum up absurdities to report on such as # of diet Cokes Trump drinks and hiring "psychiatrists" to pronounce diagnoses of Mr. Trump's behavior.
What I find to be "lying" about the MSM are their sins of omission rather than commission. When I was getting my MA in Journalism at U of M, my master prof insisted that all of us give BOTH sides in our reportage. He held that as the first priority of journalism. Currently there are so many good things happening that get little or no coverage on the broadcast and in print news. What is reported is done askance, often with some verbal stab by the reporter or "host", not given straight forward as positive news.
That's my gripe.
Yes, report the problems and even criticize, but along with that you must report the good and there is plenty of that this year. In my opinion, that is the reason all of the polls are so skewed. I believe Trump's #s would be much higher if MSM objectively covered both, which the biased and partisan media cannot bring themselves to do.

Majormajor said...

"The socialist quote was NOT Hitlers." Dave Dubya.


The Nazi State is not a "bourgeois" but a "Socialist" State, on the strength of which it can afford to prevent workers from defending their own interests.

Aurel Kolnai, The War Against the West (1938) London, UK, p. 325.

Another source of the Nazi Party’s popularity was its liberal borrowing from the intellectual tradition of the socialist left. Many of the men who would become the movement’s leaders had been involved in communist and socialist circles.

Götz Aly, Hitler’s Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State, New York: Metropolitan Books (2007) p. 16


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GWuoud11Fg

National Socialism is socialist Leftism based on Race. The Third Reich produced "Triumph of the Will" in 1934. This link/film provides evidence that Hitler wanted a socialist classless society.

In 1927, Hitler said: "We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”


How about Lenin, was he a socialist?

TB3 said...

"Last year I wished Dave a Merry Christmas and a wonderful New Year. His response was hate filled, mocking and dismissive to say the least."

Not on this Blog or his Blog. Not that I found. In any case; Judging from your consistant tone and shotgunning of different topics, you're not doing yourself any favors in adjusting his own attitude towards you, I imagine.

"Now if that is what you call "antagonism" then Dave really is a snowflake of the first degree. Keep in mind that he works for the Michigan Corrections dept, and if he can't take it here, then how does he handle the antagonism at work?"

So... you are antagonizing Dave? Because he should be able to take it? Is this not the literal definition of trolling?

"Dave's problem is he is an authoritarian leftist, and as at his job can book nothing but total submission to his orders and beliefs."

Example?

“I know nothing of his birth country or his citizenship status; there is plenty else to dislike him for.”

Born in Hawaii in 1961 and people still admit "I know nothing of his birth country" That's unfortunate.

"Currently there are so many good things happening that get little or no coverage on the broadcast and in print news. What is reported is done askance, often with some verbal stab by the reporter or "host", not given straight forward as positive news."

"I believe Trump's #s would be much higher if MSM objectively covered both, which the biased and partisan media cannot bring themselves to do."

T.Paine often brings this up. Carrie, what's an example of this in your opinion?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Carrie, you've made a very astute observation about today's MSM -regarding "sins of omission". I've made this claim for several years.

The MSM has essentially been the U.S. government's mouthpiece for several decades. The "fourth estate" is no more. We've been lied to and manipulated beyond reason, but more importantly we've not been told the truth. It's for this reason that I get almost all of my "news" from outside the U.S.

Dave Dubya said...

TB3,

My requests for evidence and examples have fallen on deaf ears for years now. It’s always been about beliefs that make them feel good and others looking evil.

Good luck on that, though. MM is frantically working to portray Nazis as liberals. It doesn’t matter he shares their hate for liberals, the press, educators, voting rights, and equality.

Carrie,

What I find to be "lying" about the MSM are their sins of omission rather than commission.

I agree completely. In fact I would challenge you to see this is true of FOX(R) and other Right wing outlets. Did you hear about Obama’s tax cuts on FOX(R)? Or from Limbaugh? No. Mr. Paine finally begrudgingly acknowledged this fact.

(And you are not a racist. Mr. Paine feels the need to make me the bad guy for the reasons I’ve examined.)

Liberal media, or corporate media. It cannot be both.

Corporate media has a vested interest in the status quo. They exist to make money. They pander to power to gain access. I’ve yet to see a Trumpist acknowledge the FACT that MSNBC, CNN, and other “liberal” news outlets have a PAID TRUMP SHILL on the air every day.

“Both siderism” is their MO. The reason you see so much “negative” stuff on Trump is because Trump tweets and says stupid hateful crap all the time. He is the most negative, hateful, and ignorant man in politics.

Meanwhile corporate media is selling sensationalism over information. It pays their bottom line. Reporting on the issues is secondary.

Conservatives will not believe this, but here is the research:
===
From Columbia Journalism Review:

Don’t blame the election on fake news. Blame it on the media.

It seems incredible that only five out of 150 front-page articles that The New York Times ran over the last, most critical months of the election, attempted to compare the candidate’s policies, while only 10 described the policies of either candidate in any detail.

In just six days, The New York Times ran as many cover stories about Hillary Clinton’s emails as they did about all policy issues combined in the 69 days leading up to the election.

....Notwithstanding polls that show almost 50 percent of Trump supporters believed rumors that Hillary Clinton was running a pedophilia sex ring out of a Washington, DC pizzeria


As I said, people will believe the worst about those they dislike or hate. Look at how I’m compared to Nazis AND commies in this thread. Do you see my point?
===

Belief in conspiracies largely depends on political identity

https://today.yougov.com/news/2016/12/27/belief-conspiracies-largely-depends-political-iden/

One of the most notorious internet rumors of the 2016 presidential campaign, that there was a pedophile ring in the Clinton campaign, with code words embedded in the hacked emails of Clinton campaign manager John Podesta, is seen as “probably” or “definitely” true by more than a third of American adults.

Similarly, even after the Central Intelligence Agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation reported that Russia was responsible for the leaks of damaging information from the Democratic National Committee and the Clinton campaign and that the hacking was done to help Donald Trump win the Presidency, only one in five say that is definitely true, about the same percentage as believe it is definitely not true. A majority is in the middle.

==

“Ignorance is strength”. We see proof every day in the corporate media, White House, and Congress.

Majormajor said...

TB 3

Couple of things,

first of all Dave did not deny that I did what I said I did.
secondly, there are more than just 2 blogs.



Majormajor said...

"portray Nazis as liberals."

They are then socialists? I guess the proof I offered you is again being ignored cause it doesn't fit your closed minded leftist views.

So much for that claim of yours.

Now tell us all, was Lenin a socialist? Or will you ignore that question?

Majormajor said...

TB3,

Something else about your "pal" Dave, he will put words into others mouths as he deflects from their central point.

Example, today he said I was trying to "portray Nazis as liberals."
This is lie, read my posts and find that.
What I have said and have quoted others saying and provided a video of Hitler himself saying is Nazis were socialists.

Subtle difference but one that high lights the tactic of lefty Dave.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Chuck, get over it. And be honest. You know you've been a total ass for at least the last two years I've had the misfortune to know of you. As TB3 can see, you're totally antagonistic and your motives are malicious and provocative.

Stop the charade and people may start taking you seriously and respectfully. Even in this post, your designs are easy to see. I might point out, after all the comments you've placed, not one had to do with Mr. Paine's chosen topic. Not one!

Mr. Paine, you've made a choice to condone Chuck's disruptive and obnoxious behavior. Why is This?

Dave Dubya said...

MM,

You repeated this lie:

In 1927, Hitler said: "We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”

How about Lenin, was he a socialist?


Lenin was a communist. Bernie is a socialist. But you can’t see the difference, so what’s the point?

You say liberals are socialists. You say Nazis are socialists. Therefore Nazis are liberals. This is how Nazi propaganda worked. This is how radical Republican propaganda works. You keep imitating Nazi tactics as you accuse others of being like them, or commies. Same tactic. Same hate. Same ignorance.

Hitler was a Nazi fascist who hated liberals, educators, unions, and journalism. You share this with him. NAZI was a term for the party before Hitler took it as his own. The N stands for Nationalist. Trump claims to be a Nationalist too. Nazis LOVE him. You are a Trumpist. You are a nationalist like he is. You support a sex criminal and racist liar. This is also very fascist of you. You would have made a “good German”. You and NAZIs love Trump. I mean, you and “very fine people”, amirite?

You just repeated a lie. Hitler didn’t say that. I pointed the truth out. You ignored me and repeated your far-Right propaganda. You are a fascist that way. I will ignore you until you accept my correction. Like that will ever happen. LOL!

Feeling the cold snap? Tiki torches are useful for that too. ;-)

Mr. Paine will be along shortly to defend you, for he supports “very fine people” too. At least he did a while back.

JG,

MM is Mr. Paine’s loyal sidekick. Loyalty is highly valued by authoritarian personalities. Look what happened to Comey for not swearing loyalty to Dear Leader. Trump then gloated over his obstruction of justice to Russians in the Oval Office.

“Russia, if you’re listening....”

“No collusion, no collusion! No puppet, no puppet.”

T. Paine said...

"The one thing I've noticed about Mr. Paine's responses over the years is that he never quotes, verbatim, what you or I address." ~ JG

Really? I typically put the issue you or Dave are addressing in quotation marks and then give my response; just like I am doing right now. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else, sir.

Further, I do at time make generalized comments about leftists and such while being sure to say "some leftists" or "the militant left" typically acts or responds in this given manner. I qualify it as such because even some leftists don't fall in line with all of the ones in which I may be taking particular issue at the time. Further, I guess I must have missed where I haven't addressed your comments by the paragraph or sentence. Seems to me I do that a lot for you and especially for Dave. It is very time consuming and often fruitless to do so.

Further, I agree with you. Many Leftists don't want to be backed into a corner. When they have been, they're stymied and ignore the questioner - or distract and project, as Mr. Dubya has been doing throughout this thread. The deer-in-headlights meme describes them perfectly. (My apologies for plagiarizing so profusely, but it did seem to be apropos in light of the current discussion, sir.)

Dave Dubya said...

Speaking of the Nazi way...Trump wants to ban a book about the unqualified and demented President.

Book banning. Nazis and Trumpists share another "value".

The Orange Fuhrer is enraged. I hear he's confused, has no attention span, and repeats himself lately. We have our second Alzheimer's President.

God help us.

Dave Dubya said...

Mr. Paine,

Your sidekick repeated his lie. Better ignore it and attack me again.

T. Paine said...

"Mr. Paine, you've made a choice to condone Chuck's disruptive and obnoxious behavior. Why is This?" ~ JG

Well, first of all because I typically am in agreement with his take on most issues, even if they are off-topic at times. Second, I put up with the disruptive and obnoxious behavior from a few others on the left, so it strikes me as being pretty fair and balanced if I allow some latitude with Majormajor on the right. Third, because it is my blog and I choose to allow freedom of speech. Believe me, if I didn't there are myriad times when I could have easily deleted or blocked certain "contributors" to the comment page for their over-the-top accusations, demonization, and flat out lies.

Dave Dubya said...

Your sidekick repeated his lie. Better ignore it and attack me again. Or agree with him.

Thank you. May I have another, sir?

Majormajor said...

"You say liberals are socialists."

Another example of Dave putting words into the mouths of others.

Majormajor said...

Funny Dave but you didn't discredit the other sources about Nazis being socialists.

"Lenin was a communist. Bernie is a socialist."

http://www.cpusa.org/party_info/socialism-in-the-usa/

You might want to check what the Communist Party USA says about the subject of socialism and communism.

I'm sure some will find my post "antagonistic, malicious and provocative.
But this "The Orange Fuhrer is enraged. I hear he's confused, has no attention span, and repeats himself lately. We have our second Alzheimer's President" is not. LOL

Carrie said...

"Loyalty is highly valued by authoritarian personalities. Look what happened to Comey for not swearing loyalty to Dear Leader. Trump then gloated over his obstruction of justice to Russians in the Oval Office.Æ

Truly this is funny. The Democrats were screaming at Comey and wanted him fired the summer of 2016, Hillary loudest of all.
Then Trump does what THEY WANTED and they scream that he fired Comey!

Weird debate, huh?!

Carrie said...

Dave, you are blind to the fact that Trump uses Tweets to defend himself from the consistent drum beat of the MSM who do their utmost to bring him down. Obviously you have listened far too much to them. Also, the "shills" you speak of are so in the minority at those networks they are heard as a whisper. You are aware, I suppose, of the media tracking that shows that over 90% of reportage on Trump since he announced his candidacy through today has been negative and disparaging, right? Compare to Obama who was their god and could do no wrong although he messed up constantly.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Chuck, it's a variation of Euclid's proposition, but I wouldn't expect you to understand this. If a = b and b = c, then a = c. Sound reasonable? Now relate this to your remark at time-stamp 4:42 PM.

Got it? Make sense now?

Dave, don't neglect to mention our dumbass president's non-understanding of climate as opposed to weather. ;-) It's no wonder the deplorables love him!

We're doomed.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Carrie, in reference to your last comment to Dave, please cite your sources. Sounds like opinion to me.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Mr. Paine, in reference to you last comment directed toward me (time-stamped 4:16 PM), it appears it's open season. Thank you for the head's up.

Majormajor said...

Less we forget who started the antagonism, here is the 2nd post of this thread. And the issue of posts that are "malicious and provocative"?

"Thank you, "Ms. Paine", for your throughly unbiased and unslanted opinions of your husband. Besides Chuck, you're undoubtedly his biggest fan. ;-)"

Note who posted it, and reconsider everything he has every claimed.
Not to worry he will ignore it,claiming the very posting of this is wrong and slanted.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave, have I mentioned to you that I bought two copies of Fire and Fury - one for me, and another for a good friend. In the course of a few days, it went from 49,449 to 1 on Amazon's best seller list! Wow!

Heads are exploding in the White House. 😠 💣💥 What a shame...

Dave Dubya said...

Carrie,
"Loyalty is highly valued by authoritarian personalities. Look what happened to Comey for not swearing loyalty to Dear Leader. Trump then gloated over his obstruction of justice to Russians in the Oval Office”

This is truth. Now the deflection:

Truly this is funny. The Democrats were screaming at Comey and wanted him fired the summer of 2016,

This is false. One has nothing to do with the other. Nice try.

Now you whine about the media not being 100% Trumpist like FOX(R). You are an authoritarian personality. You want a submissive press and one party dictatorship. How un-American and fascist of you.

Sad.

MM putting words in my mouth:

Example: Leftist policy's are so good they have to be mandated, offends him, he responses do not find fault with that statement but the person who posted it....He is such an extreme leftist that calling him commie is an understatement. His support for the non democratic states of the middle east is legionary. In the face of history he denies Nazism was socialistic...Big government is his God, and government spending is his manna.

Can he offer any proof to deny any of this? I doubt it.


IOKIYAR

He is a liar and Mr. Paine condones it. But we understand why.
==
From CPUSA:

SOCIALISM = ‘LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS’

In a socialist society, people would get paid for the hard work they do. They would be rewarded for the initiatives they take.

BILL OF RIGHTS UNDER SOCIALISM
Socialism in the United States would be built on the strong foundation of our Constitution’s Bill of Rights. This includes making the promises of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and equality for all real.

VOTING RIGHTS FOR PEOPLE, NOT FOR CORPORATIONS
A fairer political system goes hand-in-hand with a socialist economy. To work effectively, socialism needs the active and informed participation of the American people. The American people already agree that corporate money must be barred from corrupting our election system.
==

What’s not to like?

Medicare is socialism. The VA is socialism, Social Security is socialism. Public education is socialism. The military, law enforcement and fire departments are all socialized gubmint “free stuff”.

Constitutional regulation of commerce is socialism. Constitutional taxation is socialism. Constitutional provision for the general welfare is socialism.

What’s not to like? I’ll tell you. Communism as practiced by Russia and China. Government ownership of industry and agriculture, one party dictatorship, Stalinism, Maoism, etc.

Absolute Communism and unregulated capitalism fail. They support tyranny, wage war, and suppress democracy. Socialism is the moderate intermediate alternative.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Yes, Chuck, I thought Carrie was Mr. Paine's beloved. I'll take him at his word that she isn't, although he's given me no reason to do that. But I'm an honorable and honest person and will take him at his word.

Sorry, but there's nothing malicious about that. It certainly seems reasonable. Who else would be his biggest fan?

Well, except you, of course. ;-)

TB3 said...

MM,

"first of all Dave did not deny that I did what I said I did."

He didn't deny that you did what you said you did. What did you do again and why is it such a crucial imperative that Dave Dubya deny it? It's such an imperative that it's derailed the conversation away from the topic of Israel and Jerusalem that the original post was about.

"secondly, there are more than just 2 blogs."

Thank you. This was a productive, useful comment.

"Example, today he said I was trying to "portray Nazis as liberals."
This is lie, read my posts and find that."

Or you could simply just tell me which comment it was so I don't have to sift through the, now, 103 comments in this thread. Not much of an example if I have to do all the work in proving your point for you.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

TB3, welcome to the unproductive and useless world of Chuck's. I've been hearing his nonsense for at least two years now. But, it's fun to bury his nose in his own s**t. He's really an easy mark - as I'm sure you're figuring out.

Have fun!

Carrie said...

I believe Clinton Cash has Fire and Fury beat by far. But that doesn't matter. Everyone will read what suits their own politics and biases -- it's a happy world in book publishing land. But it will be in the bargain bin in a month.

Also, yes, the Dems wanting Comey OUT has a lot to do with his firing. It is not false. Look it up. Even Hillaryadmitted her wishes during her outrageous book tour for What Happened. This is not conflated. Dems called for Comey to be fired. Trump was advised to go along (He probably wanted to do so anyway) and rest is history, distorted now as you have done.

There is NOTHING wrong or illegal with Trump wanting Sessions to have his back and not recuse himself. Tonight on the news there was a quote from Holder saying just that -- he was Obama's "wing man" and had his back, in fact enjoy8ing his job very much. I don't remember any outcry that Holder was providing cover for Obama back then, do you?. More than that Holder carried out several questionably legal/illegal activities for Obama. And there is nothing wrong with Trump asking Comey to make public the fact the he, Trump, was not guilty in Comey's investigations. Why wouldn't the President want the public to know that?

One thing you guys are correct about -- we've veered way off course of the original topic. I think T. Paine should tell us all to shut up now but he's a good and patient guy so he's probably waiting for this to run the course and wear out.

Carrie said...

I have to laugh again. I am not Ms. Paine although anyone knowing him would feel fortunate to have his love and loyalty.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Yeah, the floodgates have opened, but Mr. Paine wants it that way. I'm more than happy to help him out. :-)

Carrie said...

Carrie, you've made a very astute observation about today's MSM -regarding "sins of omission". I've made this claim for several years.

The MSM has essentially been the U.S. government's mouthpiece for several decades. The "fourth estate" is no more. We've been lied to and manipulated beyond reason, but more importantly we've not been told the truth. It's for this reason that I get almost all of my "news" from outside the U.S.

I agree, JG. Freedom of the press has run amok, turned to posturing, agendas and biases. Tragically, it is essential to a democracy/republic to get the truth from ALL sides but I believe the media has had its own interests (read profits) in charge of its output at least since Watergate showed them "the money.". We live in a time when an objective press is dead. I wonder -- will it revive by some miracle or continue its death crawl? (As for getting your news from outside -- I doubt you can find unbiased reportage anywhere these days.)

Majormajor said...

I agree with the positions taken on Jerusalem by Mr. Paine and Ms Carrie.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"Freedom of the press has run amok, turned to posturing, agendas and biases." ~~ Carrie

Yes, it's the dilution of the Fourth Estate through the profit-motivated eyes of the free market and the crippling of the FCC. The hell with the obligatory nature of being the eyes and ears for the citizenry. The corporate mainstream media are nothing more than the sounding board for the government and the crooked international banking cabal.


"We live in a time when an objective press is dead." ~~ Carrie

That's why more and more people get their news from other sources. They're certainly not getting it from the corporate mainstream media. Watergate may have played a part, but it was even prior to that when 60 Minutes showed once loss-leader news divisions how to be profitable like their entertainment cohorts. Now, the distinction is mostly blurred. Once consolidations of the literally hundreds of independent news outlets started getting eaten up through corporate mergers and consolidations and buyouts, providing news became a secondary concern. "Profit" now became the name of the game.


"As for getting your news from outside -- I doubt you can find unbiased reportage anywhere these days." ~~ Carrie

It's out there, but like a fine delicatessen one needs to pick and choose -- and be selective. Sure, there's innate bias everywhere -- we're human beings -- but we're also obligated to search out the truth and question everything. Our maker, however you choose to conceive of our originator, certainly allowed us to evolve into our unique position of having bigger brains and thus enhanced abilities to critically think and make logical choices. That's where we've fallen down as a society and within civilization as a whole. Instead, profit became the more important motivator. We're paying dearly for this.

As our Agitator-in-Chief so often repeats, "so sad".

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"I agree with the positions taken on Jerusalem by Mr. Paine and Ms Carrie." ~~ Chuck

Of course you do. Reference my last position written to Carrie (above). ;-)

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Now he's defending himself, saying he's a "stable genius". Too much! Can't wait to receive my book... LOL

Chuck, do you believe Trump's claim that he's a stable genius? How about you, Mr. Paine?

Jerry Critter said...

Carrie — “There is NOTHING wrong or illegal with Trump wanting Sessions to have his back and not recuse himself.”

True, there is nothing illegal about Trump “wanting” Sessions to have is back and not recuse himself. However, acting on those wants, can be illegal if his intent was, or is, to interfere with Mueller’s investigation. If that is his intent in his actions, (note: not his wanting), it is OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, a very serious crime.

I find it interesting that you referred to his thoughts and feelings, rather than his actions and the intent of his actions, intents that he has talked about, very clearly at least raising the question of obstruction of justice.

Majormajor said...

jG,
Not going off the subject of the thread by answering your non topical question.


"One thing you guys are correct about -- we've veered way off course of the original topic."

Carrie

Dave Dubya said...

"One thing you guys are correct about -- we've veered way off course of the original topic."

Carrie


We've covered it enough.

We've gone from "Israelis are all God's angels and Arabs are all Satan's Spawn" to "Liberals are always wrong and Conservatives are always right".

This is the Black and White world view. We got it.

And "Hitler was a liberal socialist, not a Nationalist fascist".

Cuz he and Major said so, and Hitler and Major never lied.

Never. We got that too. It's as plain and simple as Black and White.


Majormajor said...

"Hitler was a liberal socialist, not a Nationalist fascist".
From the mind of Dave Dubya.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Chuck, you're repeatedly and purposely always off topic, whether on Mr. Paine's, Mr. Degan's, or Dave Dubya's blogs, and you have been for years. It has never been by accident or happenstance, but rather purposefully and destructively and with a scorched earth mentality. You have zero moral consciousness, and present your faith with a negative image by non-christians such as myself. Paraphrasing the great Ghandi, "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians."

Since one of my recent comments where I explicitly pointed out, to all, that you hadn't made even one comment pertaining to the posted topic at hand, you've experienced an amazing transformation! Congratulations! (Never let it be said that I don't give credit, where credit is due.)

Now why, exactly, do you agree with Mr. Paine and Carrie about Trump's decision regarding Jerusalem?

Majormajor said...

"We've covered it enough."

Authoritarian Dave Dubya.

Dave Dubya said...

JG,

”why, exactly, do you agree with Mr. Paine and Carrie”

He never answers questions. (Parrots and puppets can’t think of anything original.) After I requested it, he won’t even tell us the “question” he says I refuse answer.

This gibberish is as close as he got.

"first of all Dave did not deny that I did what I said I did." Sounds like “covfefe” to me. LOL

His response to you was more of his psychosexual obsession and projection towards making it about me instead.

"We've covered it enough."Authoritarian Dave Dubya.

Isn’t he cute that way? Precious little projecting authoritarian liar that he is.

We can count on him to tell us “what Hitler said”, can’t we?

Every authoritarian here believes Hitler made the “we are socialist” remarks, because it FEEEEELS so good.

My correction was duly ignored because it FEEEEELS so good to ignore Liberals and facts. Just like it FEEEEELS so good to doubt Obama is a US citizen.

They can ignore us because they already “know” we are wrong.

I have studied Authoritarian Personalities for years.

Majormajor said...

I agree with the positions taken on Jerusalem by Mr. Paine and Ms Carrie.

jG,
Not going off the subject of the thread by answering your non topical question.

"One thing you guys are correct about -- we've veered way off course of the original topic."

Carrie

"Hitler was a liberal socialist, not a Nationalist fascist".
From the mind of Dave Dubya.

"We've covered it enough."

Authoritarian Dave Dubya.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"[Chuck] never answers questions.(Parrots and puppets can't think of anything original.)" ~~ Dave Dubya

Neither can ding-a-lings.

"[Chuck's] response to you was more of his psychosexual obsession and projection..." ~~ Dave Dubya

I believe you're right, Dave. He literally stalked me from Tom's blog, to yours, and even to mine when I bothered to post. He was obsessed with me until I assured him I wasn't gay, but I really think he carries a torch for you now - well, besides those he uses at his various rallies. ;-)

Jefferson's Guardian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Carrie said...

For those of you lauding that "novel" Fire and Fury" by Wolf, I refer you to this :http://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/01/05/tony-blair-fire-and-fury-accusations-he-warned-trump-about-uk-spies-are-complete-fabrication
Wolf is renowned for his fiction and already reputable writers, even those on the Left, are running as fast as they can from him. Of course, the MSM is using the quotes to promote their anti-Trumpism but respected writers are all condemning Wolf as a sleaze from the early days. Even Wolf himself, admitted yesterday that he cannot vouch for the truth of what people said in his book! And then he actually said it is up to readers to decide.
Whenever did you hear a reputable author tell you to decide the truth or not about what he/she has written? Don't waste your $. If you still want to read the trash, get it from your library.
It is LOL if not so utterly harmful.

Majormajor said...

I agree with Carrie's post of January 6, 2018 at 4:34 PM.

Dave Dubya said...

Even Wolf himself, admitted yesterday that he cannot vouch for the truth of what people said in his book! And then he actually said it is up to readers to decide.

Has Tony Blair always told the truth? No. But never mind.

Trumpists lie all the time, so Wolf cannot vouch for their telling the truth, can he? He can quote them, though, and that is what he did.

Let’s try this experiment.

Remember this?

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation....”

Majormajor said Hitler said this. Then he repeated it AFTER I showed that it wasn’t Hitler.

It’s up to Carrie and Mr. Paine to decide if MM is telling the truth.

Well? Is this liberal wrong, or was MM wrong, after being shown to be incorrect and repeating it anyway?

Was he truthful?

Carrie? Mr. Paine?

Hello?

Anyone there?

What did I tell you about authoritarians ignoring liberals who tell the truth?

But they sure know how to make America great. Just ignore those damn liberals, amirite?

Remember those 3 monkeys with their hands over their eyes, ears, and mouth?

The first two were conservatives.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

The Blaze?? Do you mean the lifeboat for both Beck and O'Reilly after their corporate sponsors deemed even their antics as being over the top?
Do the words, "freedom of the press running amok", "posturing", "agendas", and "biases" sound familiar?

I've already placed my order and have no intentions of cancelling. The fact that Trump's lawyers desperately tried to stop the release, and Trump went after Bannon with a cease and desist order, tells me there are some golden nuggets hidden between the pyrite and Diet Coke bottle caps.

I'll consider the twenty bucks a charitable contribution to the Clinton Foundation. 😃

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
I wonder when our conservative friends will respond to my request for who's being truthful? LOL

“The story is a sort of reflection on the crazy state of modern politics. Here’s a story that is literally an invention and is now halfway around the world with conspiracy theories attached to it,” Blair said in the interview. “That’s modern politics.”

Tony knows all about this.

Tony pushed some inventions and conspiracy theories too. Saddam’s “nukular” aluminum tubes, ties to al-Qaeda, biological labs, drones, the “Prague meeting”, etc. This was even after the British Downing Street Memo admitted US intelligence was being “fixed around policy”.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"I wonder when our conservative friends will respond to my request for who's being truthful?" ~~ Dave Dubya

Remember, conservatives never answer questions that force them to see and understand beyond their limited worldview.

But, if I were a betting man, I'd place my money on Carrie if there's anybody who would.

Chuck, never. Forget it. He lacks intellect. He still refuses to comment on this post's topic, after all.

As far as Mr. Paine, he's watching this thread, very intently, pretending to be away. But, you'll never get commitment from him, either. He's still living in the 1950s - an atypical "black & white" time without overlap or nuance.

Let's wait and see if Carrie replies.

Carrie said...

OK. Here is my last post for awhile. I have to get back to two writing projects for which I am on deadline.

Michael Wolf's reputation for truth telling is not much. Most of his fellow writers are saying he's not credible in most of what he writes. (JG and Dave, I cannot give you names because I've read so many articles the last couple of days, I did not take notes on them, just absorbed their essence. If you have the time and the energy you could Google to see the reports. I don't right now. However, if I continue to see these articles, I will get back to you and cite names.) Still, let it be said that even the NYT opposes Wolf and claims he is not a credible writer and that he uses "sources" often made up. He had access to the WH but never interviewed Trump for the book. And it is my thinking, no proof, Guys, that Bannon was a sure leaker who knew he was out the door when he met with Wolf so....just my supposition.)
A couple of article excerpts: Esquire: "And a friend of Wolff’s recalled hearing a source at The New York Times say: “If Wolff were any further up his own ass, he'd be a colonoscopy" and another colleague said, "People really can't stand Michael."

"Criticism of the book has been swift, with The Washington Post and others questioning the veracity of its accounts"

":"Michael will say anything about anybody," late New York Times media reporter David Carr told the New Republic. "He's fearless in a way that people attribute to SOCIOPATHOLOGY but that I always thought was a business strategy."

Unless I do come up with other named sources to cite to you, I'm off the blog for awhile. But I'm sure you'll see some show up on TV, etc.

Time to do my real work! Bye.

TB3 said...

"As for getting your news from outside -- I doubt you can find unbiased reportage anywhere these days."

Later offers up:

"For those of you lauding that "novel" Fire and Fury" by Wolf, I refer you to this :http://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/01/05/tony-blair-fire-and-fury-accusations-he-warned-trump-about-uk-spies-are-complete-fabrication"

Carrie, it seems you are biased and do not know the facts. You have succumbed to Pro-Trump Propaganda. There was no such thing as renouned fiction writer Michael Wolff before other people took umbrage at his latest work. If you look at the make up of all those individuals running as fast as they can from him, it's definately not those on the left. So calling Wolff "renouned for his fiction" is simply an attempt at minimizing and delegitimizing his latest work. (Trump let him in, now doesn't like what he has said, so is saying something different). There are no "respected writers" "condemning" Wolff as sleaze from "the early days". Wolff admitted, in the prologue of his own book, that many of the separate accounts he wrote about contradict one another and asks the reader at the outset of the book to come to their own conclusions.

Their own conclusions. Something folks like Carrie have chosen to outsource to The Blaze. Renounced perveyors of unbiased book reviews written the day that the book was released to the public. You wrote this in the same comment thread that you bemoaned the lack of unbiased reporting. It's not really unbiased reporting you wish to see, right? You just want reinforcement of your own opinions.

Why not just get the book and come to your own conclusions? Like the Author said. If you don't want to, why do you trust The Blaze to tell you what to think about it? Especially from an article likely written before the author had a chance to read the book herself? You mentioned yesterday (Jan 5th, 12:28pm) that you worked to get your MA in Journalism. Apparently the first priority of a journalist is to provide both sides of a story (Not getting the truth? Just offering up both sides? Huh, ok), but did the Professor also try to get you to understand that you should find out the both sides of a story using primary sources? The Blaze reporting on a segment of BBC4 Radio interview concerning the book is pretty far from the primary source to derive your own conclusion.

Again; Why not just get the book and come to your own conclusions on it? Make your Prof proud.

Jerry Critter said...

As far as Mr Wolff is concerned, don’t blame the messenger. That’s what you do when you can’t refute the message.

That said, it is up to Wolff to provide backup for what he has said. Any writer worth his salt will have tapes, recordings, or at least notes about what, when, and where things were said. He needs to,produce them.

However, one reason it is getting so much press is because of Trump himself. Much of what is being said in the book about him is believable by close to, if not more than, a majority of the people because of what Trump says and does.

Trump is his own worse enemy. That is a fact!

Jerry Critter said...

One other relatively minor point Carrie. His last name is Wolff, not Wolf. Journalists should know to at least get the name of the person you are writing about correct.

Majormajor said...

"Criticism of the book has been swift, with The Washington Post and others questioning the veracity of its accounts"

Esquire: "And a friend of Wolff’s recalled hearing a source at The New York Times say: “If Wolff were any further up his own ass, he'd be a colonoscopy"

New York Times media reporter David Carr told the New Republic. "He's fearless in a way that people attribute to SOCIOPATHOLOGY but that I always thought was a business strategy."

Should Mueller get Wolff to testify under oath?

Great post Carrie, by now I'm sure you get the picture of how hated filled are the lefty's who haunt this blog.

Dilly Dilly!

Dave Dubya said...

Let’s try this experiment again.

Remember this?

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation....”

Majormajor said Hitler said this. Then he repeated it AFTER I showed that it wasn’t Hitler.

It’s up to Carrie and Mr. Paine to decide if MM is telling the truth.

Well? Is this liberal wrong, or was MM wrong, after being shown to be incorrect and repeating it anyway?

Was he truthful?

Carrie? Mr. Paine?

Hello?

Anyone there?

Crickets.

Authoritarian personalities... ignoring reality, cuz librools iz alwaz rong.


Jefferson's Guardian said...

Yes, Dave, crickets indeed. Chuck refuses to acknowledge his abhorrent "mistake" in attributing a quotation to Adolph Hitler. (But you and I both know it wasn't a "mistake", since Chuck's a pathological liar - just like his Dear Leader.)

Then, of course, neither our host, Mr. Paine, or his esteemed expert on Middle Eastern affairs, Carrie, will correct the village idiot, but instead choose to reinforce his incessive lying by remaining silent on the issue.

Of course, I can't legitimately condemn Carrie for her silence, since she probably doesn't know Chuck from the man on the moon - and we certainly don't know that for sure - but with Mr. Paine that's not the case. Mr. Paine has read all of Chuck's gibberish over the course of three different blogs, over the course of about two years, yet he still insists Chuck brings meaningful insights and contributions to the discourse.

Hmm, what were you saying, Dave, about the cultish fantasy world of the rightwing? We see it play out on a daily basis, don't we?

Majormajor said...

Dilly Dilly!

Jefferson's Guardian said...

So, Chuck, what was the quotation you lyingly attributed to Adolf Hitler again? Please refresh my memory.

Majormajor said...

"Hitler was a liberal socialist, not a Nationalist fascist".
Quoting Dave Dubya.


The Nazi State is not a "bourgeois" but a "Socialist" State, on the strength of which it can afford to prevent workers from defending their own interests.

Aurel Kolnai, The War Against the West (1938) London, UK, p. 325.



We are Socialists, enemies, mortal enemies of the present capitalist economic system with its exploitation of the economically weak, with its injustice in wages, with its immoral evaluation of individuals according to wealth and money instead of responsibility and achievement, and we are determined under all circumstances to abolish this system! And with my inclination to practical action it seems obvious to me that we have to put a better, more just, more moral system in its place, one which, as it were, has arms and legs and better arms and legs than the present one!

"Thoughts about the Tasks of the Future", by Gregor Strasser - (1926 June 15) Gregor Strasser (31 May 1892 – 30 June 1934) was an early prominent German Nazi official


Still waiting for Dave to show where I said "You say liberals are socialists." Dave's lies don't have to be corrected.

Dave Dubya said...

For the dupe who takes Nazis at their word:

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolph Hitler "My New World Order" - Proclamation to the German Nation, Berlin, February 1, 1933

Carrie said...

I promised so here's more on the new fiction best seller:Media Knowingly Spread Lies, As Trump Expose Unraveled

01/05/2018
Source: TTN
by: Donny Bomenabori
Media Knowingly Spread Lies, As Trump Expose Unraveled
By Financial Times (Michael Wolff (Vanity Fair) and John Gapper (FT)) [CC BY 2.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0)]
Who is Michael Wolff, the author of the controversial book that depicts President Trump as an inept child? He is a gossip columnist turned political reporter, with documented integrity issues. In a teachable moment, the media is acknowledging those issues, but quoting him chapter and verse.

In an inconsistency so obvious that the Washington Post noticed it, Wolff wrote in the excerpt of his book that was published in the Hollywood Reporter that he allegedly did not know who Speaker John Boehner was; a simple Google search yields dozens of stories documenting their relationship. The Post points to Trump referencing Boehner in a 2011 tweet and highlighted this blatant falsehood. They are still printing Wolff stories.

Axios' Mike Allen and Jim VandeHei acknowledged Wolff's unethical reporting, publishing a piece on why they believe a man known for bending the truth, even when it breaks; their piece indicates they don’t care because it reinforces what they believe. Wolff is on record saying he would say anything get the story; in fact, he seems willing to say anything to sell the story, whether it's factual or not. The media is so desperate for ammunition to use against the President that they simply don't care about its origin, duds and all.

Majormajor said...

dissodunce (n) – a leftist holding, simultaneously, two ideas which, together, undermines their premise.

Examples:
Donald Trump did not want to win the presidential election.

Donald Trump colluded with the Russians in order to win the presidential election.

Can't trust a Nazi's word.
Then use a quote from a Nazi to support a leftist claim.

"Hitler was a liberal socialist, not a Nationalist fascist".
From the mouth of Dave Dubya.

Carrie said...

Jerry, I DO blame this messenger. Wolff's goal was to make a ton of $ by spewing questionable (by his own admission) information and "leaving it up to readers t decide if it's true or not." You watch one or two of his interviews and you just know he is a sleaze. His writing surely cannot be journalism, even by your own admission. Wolff's "work" has been put down by journalists of all parties even before this; he is extremely disliked for his tactics. He's known as a former gossip columnist who pushed his way to the front via lying a lot, not by any particular talent, know-how or know-all. He's been known for his despicable-ness (I know, it's not a real word) for years, not just now. A big question is why he was ever allowed into the WH and who okayed it. Bannon? One of the main criticisms by other journalists (and I've contacted some I know) is that he DOES NOT have tapes, notes, or other documentation to prove what he wrote and when he wrote it, again by his own admission. I heard him say he often just "remembered" what someone said and later wrote it down. He has attributed quotes to persons who did not say them either purposely or because he's just a sloppy writer. So quotes throughout this book are now being loudly challenged. I mean --- seriously??? Wolff is going to have to find new watering holes in Manhattan; he's hardly welcome now in those he haunted.

That said, I agree that Trump often creates his own drama. Defenders of his tweets say he has to do so to get the truth to the public since so much that is said and written is innuendo and self-serving of reporters who spew it. I'm sure that is true:Pew and other polls show that the media has been over 90% negative on their reporting of him, and unlike with Obama for whom it was the other way around, the reports are more personal attack and less policy matters. A similar % of the media donated to Hillary which is telling, also. But I am with you though, re: thinking that much of what he tweets is better left unsaid or left those who support him and to the Repub leaders to say.

Majormajor said...

"Do not blame the messenger" assumes one vital point: that their message is the truth.

Dave Dubya said...

Thank you Carrie.

He's known as a former gossip columnist who pushed his way to the front via lying a lot

Why don't you provide evidence to support this claim? You're being no different than how you portray the target of your claim. IOKIYAR?

Media Knowingly Spread Lies?

What lies? Lies like the racist birther lie that President Obama is not an American? THAT kind of lie?

“Documented integrity issues”...Sounds like the pussy-grabbing, Miss teen dressing room peeping Tom pervert Trump, doesn’t it?

“Wolff is on record saying he would say anything get the story”

Would he dress up like a pimp too? Yes, indeedy, IOKIYAR. Very “ethical” if you are a con-servative.

”allegedly did not know who Speaker John Boehner was”

I see. Trump said he knew who David Duke was in the past, and then later said he knows “nothing about him” and praised “very fine people” marching with the Klan and Nazis.

Regardless of the accuracy of points in the book, Dear Leader’s demand to ban the book is pure fascism. (Not socialism, in case there are low-information types who don’t know the difference.)

Talk about “documented integrity issues”.

Jerry Critter said...

Carrie, we are in agreement. You do blame the messenger. But, if what he says NOW, is so wrong, why aren’t you spending your time showing us what he wrote that is not true, with references, not opinions. See, that was my whole point. People attack the messenger when they can’t refute the message. Like the old saying goes, “Even a stopped clock is right twice a day”. Perhaps it holds for broken writers too.

Hell, I suppose that even Trump tweets something true every once in a while...although there are indications that some of his tweets are written by staff members. 😏🤫

Carrie said...

I'm sorry, Jerry, but I simply don't have the time to research everything and present it here. That is why I don't present back-ups to everything. I do when I have them handy but most of the time I write after reading a bunch and then share the synopses. FYI, however, I do read a ton of both my beliefs and the opposition which is why I enjoy the debates on this blog.

I don't enjoy the name-calling and personal challenges. I do think we can have great debate w/o that.

Carrie said...

Dave, your arguments are specious.
Because you point out problems with Trump does NOT mean there are not problems with Wolff.
That's no a debate; that's attack/

Jerry Critter said...

Fair enough, Carrie. We all have lives and in some cases jobs/businesses that demand our attention at times.

One thing I wonder about though. Let’s assume you are completely right about Wolff. It appears that it was widely known that he was less than honorable and truthful as a writer. So, why did he get such wide access to the White House? Is no one keeping tabs on who is coming and going? Or, is there another reason?

I have a theory. How about this!

I must assume that the White House staff is not a complete bunch of incompetent idiots. They know what is going on. They know what information is leaking out. You can hid only so much given the day to day going ons in the WH and the number of people going in and out.

So, assuming that the truth about what people in the White House think of the president is going to leak out, if not shouted out, who better to break the story than a writer with questionable ethics and reputation? He you can attack as opposed to an established journalist with a great reputation, especially when he is reporting things that cannot be disproven.

Take your pick, a messenger you can attack or one you cannot attack.

Dave Dubya said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave Dubya said...

Carrie,

It is not specious to request evidence to support a claim or accusation. It is rational. It is not an attack. In fact you were attacking Wolff, which is fair enough. I have a feeling when this is all behind us, others in the Administration will corroborate much of Wolff's book.

We shall see.

My primary point is this.

A leader banning books is a greater problem than writing books about the leader. It is an attack by the president on free speech. As I noted, regardless of the accuracy of points in the book, Dear Leader’s demand to ban the book is pure fascism.

This point is far from specious.

Because you point out problems with Trump does NOT mean there are not problems with Wolff.

I wasn’t suggesting that.

I was addressing “documented integrity issues” that you seem to think should apply to Wolff and not to Trump.

You know about the "pimp" ACORN deception thing, right? I’m not sure how informed you are, but it would be another double standard the Right has shown on “journalistic integrity”.

Majormajor said...

"Dave, your arguments are specious."

I agree with Carrie.

T. Paine said...

"Now you whine about the media not being 100% Trumpist like FOX(R). You are an authoritarian personality. You want a submissive press and one party dictatorship. How un-American and fascist of you." ~ Dubya

Watch out Carrie. Next he will be calling you a racist for not revering Obama. Oh wait, he already has! Well at least you are in good company in the authoritarian, un-American, racist, fascist club with the rest of us. Dave, your class warfare, race-card playing, identity politics and anti-capitalistic tendencies are what is un-American. Your attitudes towards others are disgraceful. You choose to be intentionally antagonistic in nearly every damn comment you post. You discount, belittle, or ridicule anyone that disagrees with you and are constantly calling people names, ascribing words and ideals to them that are absolutely contrary to what they think and believe, and then turn around and whine that you are the one being demonized and attacked. If you simply want to bitch and throw bombs, go troll Breitbart's web site. If not, then hang up your fascist antifa clothes, and sit down and debate the facts like a damned grown-up. I swear, you might very well be the progeny of Saul Alinsky.

"As far as Mr. Paine, he's watching this thread, very intently, pretending to be away. But, you'll never get commitment from him, either. He's still living in the 1950s - an atypical "black & white" time without overlap or nuance." ~ JG

Mr. JG, as I have told Dave in the past, I typically am not on line during the weekends or evenings. I have a life outside of blogging. While I typically enjoy blogging, there are many important things I need and enjoy doing besides that, so I don't sit around my desk breathlessly waiting for the next bit of leftist dogma or attack on me to come through in the comment thread just so I have something to do.

Oh, and by the way, in case the more antagonistic among you have not noticed this in the past, with my limited time to write and respond, I am far more likely to comment, debate, and respond when people ask sincere questions and are truly interested in discussing issues from the other side of the political spectrum. (I refer to TB3, Jerry Critter, and Woodeman as the more thoughtful contributors to the discussion from the Left in particular.) I am certainly not going to sit around and be bullied into replying simply because Dave or you demand an answer in a fit of pique. (And no, you aren't guilty of this all the time, JG.)

T. Paine said...

"I don't enjoy the name-calling and personal challenges. I do think we can have great debate w/o that." ~ Carrie

No one enjoys that, Carrie. Sadly, there are some people that simply never grew up and think it is okay to be belligerent and nasty because the whole world is their sandbox to play in, or at least it should be. It causes tantrums when you don't tow their line in "the game".

"One thing I wonder about though. Let’s assume you are completely right about Wolff. It appears that it was widely known that he was less than honorable and truthful as a writer. So, why did he get such wide access to the White House? Is no one keeping tabs on who is coming and going? Or, is there another reason?" ~ Mr. Critter

That is an excellent point. Your theory on why this is is quite intriguing, Jerry. I admit that it is indeed a possibility.

"A leader banning books is a greater problem than writing books the leader. It is an attack by the president on free speech. As I noted, regardless of the accuracy of points in the book, Dear Leader’s demand to ban the book is pure fascism." ~ Mr. Dubya

A rare point of agreement on principle, if not hyperbole. Requesting that the book be banned is a dangerous and slippery slope. The ONLY reason I can think of for legitimately requesting this would be if there were matters of national security discussed in the book. To my knowledge, there isn't. If there are libelous things written in the book, then that can be adjudicated and vindication received through the court system. The bottom line is that most folks on the Left are going to believe Wolff because they despise Trump, just as has been done by right-wing writers excoriating Clinton etc. are believed by those on the right. Wolff does seem to have some serious credibility issues though, not that this will stop the Trump-haters from buying and believing every nugget fed to them.

Carrie said...

He's backtracking now and saying he was misquoted, but Bannon is said to have been a major leaker and also that he knew Wolff and is probably the person who let him into the WH. Perhaps he knew he was out the door and angry. Who knows. No proof about any of this. It's just being said by several commentators. Trump, however, is his own worst enemy at times. He should have remained silent about the book and let his defenders say the things about him that he said himself. I suppose his street-fighting mentality he's had his whole life kicked in...not a good thing, but he sure has accomplished a lot and he sure does get things done!

Dave Dubya said...

Mr. Paine,

Thank you for rewarding my remarks:

there are some people that simply never grew up and think it is okay to be belligerent and nasty

I assume this is directed at “Commie Dave” and not at your sidekick. Calling out his disinformation would appear be belligerent and nasty to a Moonie too.

We get it. IOKIYAR, after all.

“not revering Obama”...Good God, what a lie. But wanting to LOCK up political opponents is not fascist, how? Wanting to ban books is not fascist, how?

Not knowing if Obama is an American is just fine, AMIRITE?

“Ignorance is strength.”

You people amaze me.

Majormajor said...

Mr. Paine,

You have correctly summed up what I have been trying to say about Dave for 3 years. I agree with your assessment 100%!

Thank you.

Majormajor said...

Carrie,

I agree with your observation about Bannon being the major leakier. My only question is what was his motive?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Mr. Paine, let's settle this potential misconception right now. Do you believe Barack Obama is an American citizen by birth? Yes or no?

How about you, Carrie? Do you believe Barack Obama is an American citizen by birth? Yes or no?

Now, Chuck, being the honorable and honest man that I am, I feel the responsibility of extending the same courtesy to you by asking the same question. Do you believe the former president, Barack Obama, is an American citizen by birth? Yes, or no?

It's a very simple question which requires no more than a very simple answer. It by no means should require any meandering or justification or interpretation. It's actually the type of question any conservative would enjoy answering; it's totally a "black and white" issue - like answering the question whether a person is pregnant or not.

It's very simple.

Majormajor said...

Yes jG I believe former President Obama is an American by birth.


Can't say I don't answer your questions.

T. Paine said...

JG, I chafe at responding to your demanded question; however, just so it is on record for when I am undoubtedly libeled again in the future I will answer this question yet again.

I believe President Obama is an American citizen by birth. I have seen no credible evidence to suggest otherwise.

JG, do you believe that President Trump has broken the law while in office or having been elected to office by colluding with the Russians? If so, what evidence do you base this decision, sir?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Mr. Paine, I'm sorry you feel my request was demanding and unwarranted. That wasn't my intention. You see, I've never asked this of you and I just wanted to put this issue to bed if at all possible.

As far as your questions posed to me, which neither do I find demanding, I don't know whether this president has broken any laws, or colluded with the Russian government while in office, and I don't know whether he did during the presidential campaign. This is why he's being investigated. It is, for all practical purposes, the discovery period by the independent counsel, whose investigation could take a while. We'll have to wait and see.

Mr. Paine, if there was (or is) Russian interference, don't you believe we should make every effort to find out? As an American, don't you want to know whether our election processes are tainted and manipulated? I know I do.

Now, I do think Donald Trump has been involved in some, let's just say, unsavory and shady "business" dealings which I'm confident will come to light in this investigation. Again, we'll have to wait and see.

T. Paine said...

JG, my apologies to you, sir. In light of answers "demanded" by others in the past, I was perhaps a little too sensitive to your inquiry accordingly.

As for Trump's potential collusion with the Russians, I doubt seriously there is anything of substance there or we probably would have learned something by now considering the penchant for leaks damning towards President Trump coming out of the Executive Branch. That said, the investigation should run its course to either exonerate or indict accordingly. Yes, I want to know the truth. I would have more confidence in the investigation, however, if some of the folks that were deeply involved with it were not so militantly anti-Trump. In light of their texts, I seriously wonder about the objectivity of their investigation when they were still a part of it. It casts a shadow on the impartiality of the investigation, to say the least.

woodenman1954 said...

I highly doubt there was any collusion going on because we would of heard of something after a year has passed. So far the only thing we ever hear is the word "Collude" and nothing else. I also have read articles from several sources that prove to me that Russia did nothing to influence the election, it is part of the Russian Hysteria that has been going on for some time. Information Clearing House is the best source of international relations right now.

If Russia did influence the election then all 17 intelligence agencies should be disbanded immediately because we are spending many billions of dollars for them to do what?

Trump has been sued 3500 times for theft of services by every type of contractor and tradesman known to man and undoubtedly many thousands did not bother to go up against his teams of full time lawyers. He is a serial rip off conman that should be sitting in a jail cell instead of the White House. Two short stories, a small custom mill work firm of ten people were owed 800,000 and when they were not payed they closed the business and laid off all the employees. Another guy delivered two baby grand pianos and was offered 25 percent of the asking price, take it or leave it, he took it. As a craftsman myself these ripoffs offend me.

Dave Dubya said...

Mr. Paine,

if some of the folks that were deeply involved with it were not so militantly anti-Trump. In light of their texts, This is why they were removed from the investigation It is a sign of integrity, not corruption, to remove said person.

I seriously wonder about the objectivity of their investigation when they were still a part of it. It casts a shadow on the impartiality of the investigation, to say the least.

No. Just no. Your “shadow” falls only on that one person, not the entire investigation. And the “shadow” means nothing relevant to the facts. This is how the Right works the refs. Was Ken Starr not partisan? IOKIYAR!

You are on the slippery slope of allowing only sympathetic partisans to investigate. The idea that only Trump supporters can be objective is a very dark shadow itself. This has NEVER been the path to justice.

Maybe in your rage to lock up Hillary, you forgot the burden of proof lies with law enforcement, not the opinions of you, FOX (R), Trump and his shills.

I applaud your common sense about Obama’s citizenship and about banning books.
=

Woody,

I’d wait and see where the money trail leads. All those Trumpists were caught in lies about meeting with Russians. The cover up gets them in the end. Trump obstructed justice and admitted so to RUSSIANS in the Oval Office.
=

Dave Dubya said...

Excellent, JG.

Now we are grounding the discussion in at least one fact. But millions of Americans are still brainwashed about Obama not being American. None are liberals, by the way.

The following may blow a few circuits, but continuing in the realm of related false beliefs we still wonder...

...If you believe Trump blaming “fake news”, if you believe Trump calling over a dozen credible women he molested liars, If you believe Trump was sent by Jesus to make America great, If you believe Trump was correct when he said, “Very fine people” marched with Nazis in Charlottesville, If you believe Hillary Clinton ran a pedophilia sex ring from a pizza parlor, If you believe Hillary Clinton should be locked up without criminal charges and conviction by law, If you believe Saddam was in cahoots with al-Qaeda, had “biological labs” and “nukular” aluminum tubes for a nuclear weapons program, If you believe there is a “war on Christmas, If you believe white Christians are persecuted and stripped of their religious freedom, If you believe corporate owned newspapers and corporate TV network news are “liberal media”, If you believe the scientific consensus on greenhouse gasses contributing to climate change is false, If you believe unions are bad for American workers, If you believe universal public healthcare is communism, If you believe colleges are pushing a “liberal agenda”, if you believe Constitutional taxation, providing for the general welfare and regulation of commerce is communism...if you believe some, most of these, or all of these, then we still have a long way to get to “Reality World”.

One side of the ideological spectrum has millions of believers in these falsehoods and propaganda memes. None are liberals.

I understand some are disturbed by the suggestion that reality does not match these beliefs. I understand it’s tempting for someone to want to suggest liberals have false beliefs to an even greater degree. One common meme is, “Liberals want government to do everything for them, give them free stuff, cradle to grave income and housing, etc.”

No liberal has ever said so. They can’t quote any liberal stating this.

On the other hand millions of Americans believe the list of false beliefs listed.

Has any conservative the intellectual curiosity to question these beliefs and figure out why they have been promulgated?

I’ll tell you why. Authoritarian followers believe their authoritarian leaders. That’s it. They want to believe the very worst about people they don’t like or don’t understand. This is their version of political correctness. Everyone believing Obama isn’t an American is a Trump Chump. The same is true for the rest.

If we want to make America great, we’d damn well get real first. You cannot build greatness upon lies and propaganda. You cannot be a just or sane society when lies are believed and liberals are blamed for everything bad. One side, the Party Trump, will never accept this notion.

THEY started this conflagration and THEY pour gasoline on it. Every one of those false beliefs listed above are fuel for that fire.

I hope this doesn’t sound belligerent and nasty. I expect the truth can FEEL that way when you cling to the above beliefs.

T. Paine said...

Woodenman, I agree with your assessment. Further, I hate when rich and powerful people intentionally bilk those working for them or cheat others. I can only pray that in this life, or the next, justice will indeed be served. If Trump is guilty of such things, then shame on him, and I hope he too is forced to account for his ways. Eventually, we all will be held to account for our deeds, good or bad, so I believe.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"I can only pray that in this life, or the next, justice will indeed be served." ~~ T. Paine

Or the next, and the next, and the next and the next... It depends upon where each is on the path to enlightenment.

Jerry Critter said...

TP — “ I hope he too is forced to account for his ways.” I would add to your hope statement, “in his life time”.

Just how do you expect that to be accomplished when republicans currently seem to be doing everything they possibly can to undermine those very efforts to find the truth, and if true, hold him accountable that are ongoing in the House, the Senate, and the FBI, the very investigations, at least the FBI investigation, that you question.

Interestingly, the investigation (FBI) that is being questioned the most, is the one being conducted by the most experienced people in the country in carrying out investigations of wrong doing. Why is that? It couldn’t be because it is the one most likely to find wrong doings? Experience does count!

If he has committed crimes, Trump needs to be held accountable to the American people.

God will take care of his/her own accountability in his/her own way. That is a completely separate issue.