Tuesday, November 7, 2017

Bowe Bergdahl and the Subsequent Silence From America

The ebb and flow of political discussions and the passionate disagreement on issues between good people with sincerely held and diametrically opposed beliefs on what is best for our nation is an intrinsic and vital part of our nation’s life blood.  That said, there are a few issues that should unite nearly all Americans in their support or scorn, as the situation warrants.  Such is my humble opinion. 

One of those “should-be” uniting issues is the disposition of military traitors. 

Last Friday, November 3rd, with little fanfare or even public acknowledgment, it was announced that military judge Colonel Jeffrey R. Nance decided that former Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl would be released from custody without having to serve any prison time at the conclusion of his court martial.  He would be stripped of his rank back to private (the lowest Army rank) and given a dishonorable discharge. 

Bowe Bergdahl was charged with desertion and misbehavior before the enemy after abandoning his outpost in Afghanistan in 2009; charges to which he pleaded guilty.  He then asked that his court martial be adjudicated by the judge alone rather than by a military jury.  I am sure this was done as a smart legal calculation by his lawyer, as a sitting jury comprised of his military comrades would probably be less inclined to provide a favorable outcome for Bergdahl.  Evidently this legal gambit worked.

Leading up to his court martial, military investigators found that Bergdahl willfully and with intention walked away from his unit. His actions were planned and premeditated. One soldier in his unit said that Bergdahl mailed his belongings back home to his parents before deserting. Further, Bergdahl sent an e-mail back to his parents saying that he was ashamed to be an American.

Bergdahl has said he abandoned his post because he wanted to travel to a larger base to report "a critical problem in my chain of command," though he did not specify what the problem was.  As a result of his deserting his unit, he was subsequently captured by the Taliban and remained in their custody for nearly five years.

Capt. John Billings was Bergdahl's platoon leader in Afghanistan and stated that the platoon initially searched for the then-private first class for 19 days, going nearly without food or water during the time of the search.  Retired Navy SEAL Chief Petty Officer James Hatch testified that he and his dog came under fire while looking for Bergdahl. He was shot in the leg, and his K-9 partner, Remco, was shot in the face and killed.  "I thought I was dead," said Hatch, who now walks with a heavy limp after 18 surgeries. He said he was concerned because there was little time to plan the search for Bergdahl, and other soldiers knew he had willfully walked away.

Sadly there are some extreme leftists in America that have embraced Bergdahl’s weak explanation that he only meant to stroll through a dozen miles or so of hostile territory to the next military base in order that he could report on conditions in his own unit, which PFC Bergdahl found to be not to his liking.  Indeed there is even some evidence to suggest that Bergdahl intended to go over to the enemy, whom he had expected to welcome him.

Now Bergdahl was not some hapless kid whom was unwillingly drafted into the Army.  He volunteered, as do all of our current military members.  He took an oath and subsequently violated it in the worst possible way.  The crime of deserting your post in a tactical combat zone is the worst offense a soldier could commit, short of turning your own weapon against your comrades.  Even had no one been wounded or killed in the efforts to find and retrieve Bergdahl, he betrayed a most fundamental trust and thus endangered those who counted on him to do his part in their mutual defense.

Perhaps even more disturbingly, President Obama decided in May of 2014 to reportedly give up cash and to swap five terrorists in U.S. custody at Guantanamo Bay in exchange with the Taliban for Bowe Bergdahl.  This was not a POW exchange, as the military knew Bergdahl willingly walked away from his post, and therefore had classified him as a deserter and not as a prisoner of war accordingly. 
President Obama surely knew these circumstances when he arranged for the swap, and yet he decided to put further American lives at risk by trading these vile terrorists in exchange for the traitorous Bergdahl.  When asked about the wisdom of releasing these terrorists, Obama stated in a press conference, “Is there the possibility of some of them trying to return to activities that are detrimental to us? Absolutely.  There’s a certain recidivism rate that takes place.” 

One has to wonder who showed the worse judgement in critical thinking: Bowe Bergdahl or President Obama.  The fact that Obama invited Bergdahl’s parents to the White House for a public ceremony celebrating Bergdahl’s release only served to further disrespect Americans and the military members that Bergdahl abandoned, endangered, and even got killed through his treacherous actions.

Second Lieutenant Darryn Andrews, 34, died when enemy forces attacked his vehicle with a roadside bomb and a rocket-propelled grenade. Private First Class Matthew Martinek, 20, died a week later from wounds sustained in the same attack. The parents of both Andrews and Martinek told Reuters that they believe their sons died searching for Bergdahl, saying they were told this by other soldiers in the platoon.

Desertion in a combat theater during war time used to be grounds for the death penalty.  Indeed Bergdahl’s actions condemned far better men to injury and death as they searched for him.  The prosecution in Bergdahl’s court martial asked for 14 years imprisonment for the traitor instead, while he could have conceivably received a term of life in prison.  Instead, Colonel Nance inexplicably excused the actions of the traitorous Bergdahl with little more than a slap on the wrist.

Bergdahl “suffered enough” according to his lawyer.  "As everyone knows, he was a captive of the Taliban for nearly five years, and three more years have elapsed while the legal process unfolded. He has lost nearly a decade of his life" Eugene Fidell, Bergdahl's civilian attorney, said at a news conference after the proceedings.  And yet Chief Petty Officer Hatch will walk with a limp for the remainder of his life, while Second Lieutenant Andrews and PFC Martinek will never come home as a result of their search to find and secure Bowe Bergdahl.  One wonders if they and their families have suffered enough too.

The bottom line is that we must hold those that commit the most despicable acts accountable for their traitorous actions, especially in combat theaters.  “Chelsea” Manning and Bowe Bergdahl are now free to happily ever after live their pathetically dishonorable lives after committing such horrific acts of treason.  President Obama further exacerbated the situation by trading five Taliban commanders, who almost surely returned to the battle field against Americans, in exchange for Bowe Bergdahl. 

This should infuriate all Americans, as much as it angers and causes great disillusionment among those military men and women that have vowed to protect us and our nation; that have looked beyond themselves in their sacrifices of protecting something far greater.  When there is little consequence to those that commit such treason, it dishonors those that willingly put themselves in harm’s way.  It serves to only further undermine military morale and discipline.  It weakens our nation.  This is something that all Americans, regardless of our political ideologies, should agree upon.  It is something that should make all of us exceptionally angry.

Ironically, this travesty of injustice continues.

After last Friday’s announcement that Bergdahl would spend no prison time for his traitorous actions, for which he pleaded guilty, his lawyer stated that they now plan on appealing Bergdahl’s dishonorable discharge. 

Fury is too trifling a word to capture what all Americans should be feeling.



37 comments:

Majormajor said...

Fury indeed.

T. Paine said...

Sadly, fury is not an emotion shared by all in this case, my friend. Indeed, it is even more infuriating that some Americans actually support this traitor.

Rain Trueax said...

At the time, I was inclined to think this was a military decision and they know more than we do. After the latest Air Force debacle (a kind word) that let an animal get off lightly for cracking a baby's head, brutalizing his wife, escaping from a mental facility, and threatening senior officers, I have to wonder what's going on with our military leadership in terms of values.

There is also Fort Hood where again serious issues were ignored leading to shootings and deaths. Has the military been taken over by less than patriotic Americans? Are they part of the swamp? Surely not all but there is no excuse for a Bad Conduct discharge for that human garbage who later mistreated a dog, stood off the police and somehow again wasn't arrested and was free to use guns, he should never have been able to purchase by our laws, to kill innocent people. I'd like to see the Air Force units responsible for him being free held accountable. Maybe the same thing is why Bergdahl was freed and now is appealing a dishonorable discharge. You can't make these things up!

I think the reason Americans don't say more is they are in outrage overcharge.

Dave Dubya said...

Some Americans support justice. Others want only revenge.

This assessment lacks a few important points. Much of your fury at Bergdahl’s sentence should be directed at Trump.

The authoritarian, draft dodging, chicken Hawk, coward named Trump stuck his nose in, declaring guilt and demanding punishment before a trial. This is un-American and improper. But don’t get mad at Trump. He is our fearless and wise leader who shares your anger.

Sgt. Bergdahl’s Sentence May Be Lighter Because of Trump’s Comments

As a candidate, Mr. Trump repeatedly called Sergeant Bergdahl a traitor and suggested that he should be executed or returned to the Taliban. On Oct. 16, Mr. Trump seemed to endorse those earlier sentiments, declining to say anything new about the case but adding, “I think people have heard my comments in the past.”

“I will consider the president’s comments as mitigation evidence as I arrive at an appropriate sentence,” the judge, Col. Jeffery R. Nance of the Army, said during a hearing at Fort Bragg.


The price paid by those forced to do searches was tragic, but it could have been worse. It has not been verified that those who died were indeed directly searching for Bergdahl. Other missions were ongoing, were they not? I know some low ranking soldiers made the claim, but it has not been confirmed by the Army.

There is a silver lining from the tragedy.

Then there was actually positive intelligence gained by Bergdahl’s captivity. (If only Trump had a concept of one percent of the suffering and stress that soldier went through.)

Bergdahl produced a ‘gold mine’ of intelligence for the government, experts testify

When there is little consequence to those that commit such treason, it dishonors those that willingly put themselves in harm’s way.

Bergdahl’s “treason” is far less than committed by those Confederate’s honored by statues. How’s that for perspective? You don’t seem angry about that for some reason. Next time you are held for years by the Taliban I’ll take your “little consequence” to heart.

So, no. It does not dishonor them in any way. You are seeking further grounds for anger. And speaking of treason, how do you think it felt to the intelligence community when Trump blabbed secrets to the Russians in the OVAL OFFICE? IOKIYAR?

Bergdahl was not right in the head to be in combat in the first place. What he did proves it. He wasn’t joining the enemy, for God’s sake. What he did was not sane. Killing the mentally ill is barbaric and medieval justice. Very Trumpian. Very conservative. Happens in Texas all the time. That, sir, dishonors our entire nation and the very concept of justice.

T. Paine said...

I absolutely, one hundred percent concur with everything you said, Rain.

I think too many politicians have tinkered with the military for years now and have conducted their social engineering experiments among our troops out of perhaps well-meaning but very misplaced ideologies. We have severely weakened many proud and even elite units accordingly.

As for the human vermin that shot up that church, I would like to know where in the chain of command the ball was dropped that he was not put in federal prison and absolutely why he was not put on the weapons background database so that he would never be able to buy a firearm ever again. The GAO should be called to investigate and punish those responsible for allowing this. A full audit needs to be done of that command to make sure others like him have also not similarly slipped through the cracks.

I think our military is still the best fighting force on the planet, but the politically-correct, protect-everyone's-feelings nonsense that has infested many facets of it needs to be rooted out and eradicated. That is not to say that legitimate abuse should ever be tolerated, but we are basically wussifying our military. When Chelsea Manning, the Fort Hood Shooter, and Bowe Bergdahl are allowed to remain in the service despite huge red flags ahead of time and then given what amounts to slaps on the wrists after the fact, we are seriously demoralizing our troops morale and telling them that these most reprehensible of behaviors are really not that serious.

You may be right, Rain. More people aren't mad, because we are in a constant state of outrage at the excesses of our national foolishness.

T. Paine said...

Dave, I was hoping that you would agree with the premise of my post. I guess I should have known better.

I don't want revenge, and your notion is ridiculous. I want justice. I want justice for those men that risked life and limb looking for this traitor, even though they knew he had deserted his post. Surely you don't think time served, a $10K fine, and a dishonorable discharge is justice for his actions that resulted in the death and injuries of his fellow comrades? Or do you?

And of course you turn this around and direct it to your most-hated president.

Yes, Trump should have kept his mouth shut on the issue, just like he should do on many issues, but again, this is NOT about President Trump. Indeed the thought that he could have tainted the outcome in this particular case is more leftist crap. There was no jury to taint. And if Colonel Nance, as the judge and adjudicator could not look at the facts presented and the testimonies of the witnesses, while ignoring the blathering of Trump and thus determine that Bergdahl deserved at minimum the 14 years in prison that the prosecution requested, then the Colonel should not be sitting on the bench. The fact that he did consider the president's comments as "mitigating evidence" in his own decision tells me that he is part of the problem of our wussified and politicized military.

"The price paid by those forced to do searches was tragic, but it could have been worse." ~ Dubya

Good God, man! Tell that to the families of those not coming home directly because of Bergdahl's actions. I am not inclined to give much latitude on this discussion. Men paid with their lives and with injuries directly because of this asshat that should never have been allowed in the military to begin with. And I understand that the Army has not officially said that lives were lost directly because of the search for this deserter. Those in his unit have said so and have no reason to lie about so serious an issue. Further, many stated that every mission in the region always had a secondary mission of finding Bergdahl after the initial searches were concluded. They were putting themselves in harm's way in order to find and rescue this vermin for over a year.

T. Paine said...

And your "silver lining" be damned! The asshat of course started spilling his guts and providing intel upon his release. It was again a means to "mitigate" his punishment because he knew he did wrong by walking away from his post and most likely sought to go to the enemy. The fact that the Taliban didn't trust him and thought him a spy must have been very confusing to the America-hating coward.

And I have no sympathy for the consequences of imprisonment of Bergdahl at the hands of the Taliban. They are pure evil. What the hell did he think they would do? He should be glad that they did not torture and kill him, although if they did we wouldn't have had to trade five Taliban commanders from Gitmo in exchange for him, thus putting even more lives at risk. THAT would have been a true silver lining. Poor little Bowe Bergdahl suffered so greatly because he was captured by the Taliban. Damn straight! These are the consequences of his actions and those that have sympathy for the traitor are a HUGE part of the problem.

Further, you can quit with your deflection to Trump, confederate soldiers, Russians etc. Those are separate issues and there is culpability to some degree at least in all of them. It changes nothing about the inadequacy of the sentence and travesty of justice in Bergdahl's sentence. Oh, and I was not advocating for the death penalty for him. I don't believe in it. I was simply saying that not so long ago, that would have been his fate. I personally feel he should spend the rest of his life in federal prison in Leavenworth, Kansas. Instead maybe he can write a book and go on a tour with his fellow traitor "Chelsea" Manning.

Very Leftist of you to excuse the poor Bergdahl because "he was mentally ill", hated America, and was upset that his chain of command actually expected him to take part with his comrades in a tactical theater of war for their mutual defense.

In this case, I will gladly side with Trump over the likes of you on this. And yes, I am exceptionally pissed off. Tread carefully if you give a damn about ever commenting here again. I am all for free speech. I am not for ever excusing and justifying traitors. EVER!

Dave Dubya said...

Holy crap. "Deflection" to Trump? Your anger blinds you to his interference in the process of justice. Maybe you agree judges with Mexican parents are unqualified too?

Your rage may see me supporting Bergdahl's actions, I suppose. It was an insane act, bordering on suicidal. That's my point that went past your anger.

Do you believe Bergdahl was mentally fit to do what he did?

As you noted: They are pure evil. What the hell did he think they would do?

He wasn't right in the head. Thank you.

I'll just conclude you would eagerly imprison for life a mentally ill person for "treason".

"Tread lightly"? You can ban me if you can't handle your anger, or cope with dissent and challenge to your assumptions. Remember, I have a blog too. I can report all the statements and facts given here in my defense.

You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts, sir.


Majormajor said...

Mr. Paine,

You and Rain are 100% correct.

Dump the Dubya.

T. Paine said...


Dave, Trump had no effect on this travesty to the detriment of justice. On the contrary, if he had any effect at all, it was to "mitigate" the sentence that this foolish judge issued. Yes, he should have kept his damned mouth and Twitter account closed. Your invocation of Trump does nothing to change the fact that justice was absolutely not served against Bowe Bergdahl and his actions that are directly responsible for the deaths and injuries to his comrades. THAT is the bottom line.

Bergdahl was a whiny, self-absorbed loner, who had little respect for his unit or America, according to many of the soldiers in his own platoon. He went over to the enemy, and that is indeed what he was very likely trying to do, because of this. Is that mental illness, extreme naivete, or the actions of a self-important asshat that should never have been allowed to join the military? You tell me.

I suppose a case of "mental illness" can be made against any traitor from Bradley Manning to the Rosenbergs. What makes a person betray their nation and give secrets or support to an evil, authoritarian, and anti-liberty enemy such as the Soviet Union or the Taliban? Further, if Bergdahl's actions were precipitated by his mental illness, why the hell didn't his lawyer plead this and use his "illness" as the cornerstone of his defense? Innocent because of the mitigating circumstances of mental illness? I don't buy it.

I find it disgusting that the two greatest military "heroes" to the far militant left in recent times are Manning and Bergdahl. I am not saying you are among these folks, but the fact that there even are any such people begs the question why they even want to "lower" themselves to live in America?

And I am well aware of your blog and your own version of the "facts" on many issues. It is a small part of the reasons why I don't comment there any more. As I said, I have no problem with free speech and dissent on my blog. I do have a problem with Americans supporting traitors that have pleaded guilty to being so.

Majormajor said...

Obama "was a whiny, self-absorbed loner, who had little respect for America".

Just ask Donna.

TB3 said...

Who exactly are you quoting, MM?

Majormajor said...

Read Mr. Paine's last post TB3.

Mr.Paine, here is the latest from the left.

California NAACP seeks to abolish ‘Star-Spangled Banner,’ calling it ‘racist’

Majormajor said...

Did Russians have collude with Obama to help defeat HRC?

Donna Brazile criticizes Barack Obama's 'titanic ego' in her new book.

Former interim DNC Chairwoman Donna Brazile said the Democratic party was "leeched of its vitality" by former President Barack Obama and others in the months leading up to the 2016 presidential campaign.

Brazile accused the 44th president of caring "deeply about his image" and using the committee to act as a bank for his personal "political expenses."

Obama "used the party to provide for political expenses like gifts to donors, and political travel," Brazile wrote, adding that the politician also used DNC funds for "his pollster and focus groups" later into his second term although he couldn't run for president again.

Jerry Critter said...

TP - “Dave, Trump had no effect on this travesty to the detriment of justice. On the contrary, if he had any effect at all, it was to "mitigate" the sentence that this foolish judge issued.”

TP, in your first sentence you say “Trump had no effect”. In your next sentence you appear to contradict that by saying “if he had any effect at all, it was to "mitigate" the sentence...”.

Mitigation is exactly why presidents do not comment, or at least should not comment, on ongoing procecutions. Mitigation seem to be your complaint, the sentence is not sever enough. Trump’s statements will be used by the defense in the appeals, and may very well result in even a lighter sentence.

What Trump says does have legal consequences. We have already seem that with the legal rulings on his “Muslim Bans”.

T. Paine said...

"California NAACP seeks to abolish ‘Star-Spangled Banner,’ calling it ‘racist’" ~ Majormajor

I am not even surprised by this kind of nonsense anymore. This is part of the reason why the NAACP has become increasingly irrelevant in recent decades. They don't speak for people of color. They only speak for LEFTIST people of color. Anyone that is a conservative and black is a race-traitor and an Uncle Tom to them. This is why Al Sharpton, who has done practically nothing redeeming in his adult life is celebrated by them, but a brilliant SCOTUS Justice like Clarence Thomas or a world class surgeon like Dr. Ben Carson are denigrated by them. Politics has trumped facts for the NAACP, and I dare say many Leftist organizations. (and yes, I know there are right wing organizations that are similarly guilty of this, but they seem to be far fewer of them.)

T. Paine said...

Jerry, you are correct. It is my opinion that Trump's dumb ass statements did not negatively impact Colonel Nance's judgement, from Bergdahl's perspective. If it did have any impact, it would have only served to help the damned traitor by mitigating a 14 year prison sentence to nothing. And I absolutely agree that presidents and Trump in particular should keep their damned mouths shut regarding pending court cases.

By the time things are done, after the traitor appeals, he may very well end up with an engraved apology and monetary reparations for his traitorous actions that resulted in good men being injured and killed.

The fact that there are Americans that find this okay is sickening.

Jerry Critter said...

TP - “ It is my opinion that Trump's dumb ass statements did not negatively impact Colonel Nance's judgement, from Bergdahl's perspective”

An interesting way to put it...from Bergdah’s perspective. In other words, Trump’s comments helped Bergdahl’s case.

TP - “...it would have only served to help the damned traitor by mitigating a 14 year prison sentence to nothing.”

Mitigation is not an all or nothing proposition. Mitigation could also mean a 13 year prison sentence instead of a 14 year one.

But we don’t have to guess whether or not Trump’s utterances were a mitigating circumstance. Here are the judges own words.

“I will consider the president’s comments as mitigation evidence as I arrive at an appropriate sentence,” the judge, Col. Jeffery R. Nance of the Army, said during a hearing at Fort Bragg.

Tony Burns said...

Dave, you would argue with a dead man.

Mr. Paine, if I were in the military, and in a combat zone, I would certainly desert, cower, or something. I get it, and he probably really has been through enough.

It is easy to judge from a position of security and perhaps courage. I would pardon him. He is not your ideal hero, but I suspect he is ultimately on your side.

T. Paine said...

Mr. Burns, if that dead man were a conservative, you are absolutely correct. Mr. Dubya would be deflecting, demonizing and arguing with him.

As for traitor Bergdahl, I have no sympathy whatsoever.

I served during Desert Storm. I know what it is like to be scared and constantly have your adrenaline coursing at some moments while facing mind-numbing boredom at others, all the while you are sweating your ass off in heat that you didn't know was even possible in which people lived.

The fact of the matter is, one takes an oath when he enlists or is commissioned in the military. That oath is not null and void if one becomes frightened. You have an obligation, particularly and without reservation, to help protect your fellow soldiers, Marines, sailors, or airmen in a tactical combat situation for your mutual defense of everyone. If only for purely selfish or fearful reasons, he should have remained with his unit as that was the best chance of him being kept safe.

Packing up your belongings ahead of time, telling your fellow soldiers that you are ashamed to be an American, and then walking a dozen miles in hostile territory to go over to the enemy is not mere cowardice. It is treason.

Every person under fire has at least some amount of fear, or they are damned fools. You do what you must though through training, honor, and respect of your comrades though.

Bergdahl "suffered enough" because he walked away from his forward based unit right into the enemy's hands. His suffering was directly due to his own actions and lack of moral character. The fact that other good young men died while trying to find him means that he has most certainly not suffered anywhere near the consequences for his actions that justice demands.

Sorry for the tone, Mr. Burns. Like I said, I get annoyed at political issues sometimes, but treason resulting in the death of Americans enrages me and I don't have any latitude to see it any other way than black and white, sir, even though I am sure Bergdahl was afraid... just like every other soldier that has experienced combat.

Majormajor said...

Mr. Paine,,

I salute you this Veterans Day, thank you for your service.

T. Paine said...

Majormajor, I thank you very much, my friend.

That said, my contributions were nothing compared to many far better men than I am.

T. Paine said...

Jerry, I had drafted a response to your last comment, but evidently did not publish it. My apologies, sir.

That said, let me respond now. First, I realize that mitigation is not necessarily an all or nothing proposition; however, the fact that Bergdahl could have received a life sentence, the prosecution asked for 14 years, and the judged sentenced him to no prison time, I would say that mitigation did indeed occur. Indeed by Colonel Nance's own words, he took Trumps correct, but inappropriate-to-comment statement into mitigating account.

Trump's words certainly did not exacerbate the sentence. This was not a jury trial where they were unduly influenced by President Trump's prejudicial words. The fact that the Colonel, THE JUDGE, who was presented with all of the facts, witness and expert testimony, and who had a guilty plea on the charges from the defendant still could not adjudicate a sentence based on the evidence and had to take Trump's basically irrelevant words into account, tells me that this judge needs to have the Judge Advocate Corp ask for him to submit his retirement papers. He basically excused an admitted deserter, who's actions directly caused the death and injury of fellow soldiers, from his traitorous behavior.

The only thing more sickening then the Judge's inexplicable sentence was the dangerous and foolish trading of traitor Bergdahl for five Taliban commanders that Obama admitted could return to the field of combat to kill other Americans. THAT, frankly, should have been grounds for impeachment for Obama, in my humble opinion. (Not that the cowardly congress would ever have done so... obviously.)

The fact that the traitor's lawyer will probably further use President Trump's words in mitigation for the appeal of the son-of-a-bitches dishonorable discharge only goes to prove that Trump and all politicians should keep their damned mouths and Twitter accounts silent on current and pending judicial proceedings.

The bottom line is Trump is still a mouthy fool. Bergdahl is a traitor. Obama is a disgrace as president. And our military's morale, discipline, and welfare was further weakened by the outcome of this trial.

Jerry Critter said...

I think we are in agreement here in terms of the affect that Trump’s words have had on Bergdahl’s sentence. If Trump had kept his mouth shut, Bergdahl’s sentence would have been more severe.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, I think you make much ado about nothing.

Mr. Paine, as usual you're fiddling while Rome is burning. [head shaking]

T. Paine said...

I know JG. I know.

Treason resulting in deaths and injuries to other Americans is much ado about nothing.

Far more important to be concerned with the lack of progressive advancement, oh and the dismantling of capitalism and liberty, correct?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

War crimes, and other crimes against humanity, don't set well with me, either, but I haven't belabored these obvious transgressions attributable to George W. Bush. By the way, neither have you. ;-)

As far as your snide second sentence -- "sort of" on capitalism, but "no" on liberty. The destroying and removal of liberties is associated with the GOP and its authoritarian mindset. That's a given. Throughout history, human rights and liberties have always been associated with the left -- never conservatism.

Capitalism, as we all know, doesn't exist as envisioned by Adam Smith. It has been captured by, and devolved into, monopolistic and oligopolistic "crony capitalism" (and "disaster capitalism" when natural or man-made calamities or tragedies allow). You and I have agreed on this point about crony capitalism, yet you still feel the inclination to attack my stance on reining in the corporate power which has taken precedence over civil liberties and democracy. [head shaking]

I stand by my earlier statement. You prefer to quibble over matters that are largely inconsequential, like a pimple on your ass, yet allow -- or at least overlook -- the cancer that's destroying your republic. Your priorities astound me, Mr. Paine. You're definitely nothing like your namesake -- that's for sure.

Majormajor said...

JG

What did you do today to honor America's veterans?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Carried water; chopped wood. The same as yesterday, and the day before yesterday.

I'll do the same tomorrow.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

One last parting comment concerning your myopic and non-peripheral vision, Mr. Paine... you've chosen to key your condemnation on a lowly non-commissioned soldier who came face-to-face with possibly a first moment consciousness raising experience, that unfortunately for him occurred during an inconvenient time.

Yet you choose to ignore the bribery charges and/or indictments of a whole slew of naval officers, including dozens of admirals, for the trading of cash, travel expenses, luxury items and sex for military secrets in the infamous Fat Leonard scandal. To this point, bribery and/or conspiracy have been the only charge[s] brought against these officers. In today's corrupt military culture where a lowly Sergent Bergdahl or any other person without means or influence would be hanging from the gallows for treason and/or espionage, these high-ranking officers are getting away with the least penalized offense.

Your Christ was arrested and tried by the Jewish authorities, turned over to the Roman government, and subsequently crucified for trumped up charges. It's unfortunate that you, like those who previously followed Jesus but then scorned him, are condemning a soldier for his ensuing enlightenment while ignoring the utter greed, lust and gluttony of these naval officers who turned over classified military secrets for their own gain.

Tsk, tsk, Mr. Paine. Once again you condemn the least among us while ignoring "the plank in your own eye".

Majormajor said...

"One last parting comment concerning your myopic and non-peripheral vision, Mr. Paine... you've chosen to key your condemnation on a lowly non-commissioned soldier who came face-to-face with possibly a first moment consciousness raising experience, that unfortunately for him occurred during an inconvenient time."

Pure sophistry, showing again how the Dunning-Kruger effect has a hold on it's writer.

T. Paine said...

JG, spare me the politically motivated "war crimes" tripe attributable to Bush. There is nothing of substance there whatsoever.

I find it amusing that you ignore the destruction of liberties at the hands of myriads of leftist regimes, particularly throughout the 20th century and into the 21st now, and think this is simply a right-wing problem.

"...yet you still feel the inclination to attack my stance on reining in the corporate power which has taken precedence over civil liberties and democracy." ~ JG

I agree that Citizen's United and giving corporate entities the same voting rights etc. as citizens is wrong and must be reversed. That said, it is economically dangerous to completely shackle our economic engine by further drowning corporations in bureaucracy, regulations, and ineffectual and counter-productive laws. Of course we need laws to protect workers, prevent monopolies, ensure product safety, and environmental protections, but the course that this has taken in extreme excess strangles our economy and the job market.

And I acknowledge I am nowhere near the man that Thomas Paine was by any stretch of the imagination. That said, I wonder what about Thomas Jefferson you assume to be guarding, sir? He was a man that understood the intrinsic value of life and liberty for every individual. Your penchant for seemingly supporting the collective, often at the denigration of the individual, hardly seems to be in line with the Jefferson that non-revisionist history portrays.

T. Paine said...

JG, I am not saying that this is necessarily your attitude, but based on your own words, it comes across that you couldn't care less about the veterans that have fought and defended this nation, in response to Majormajor's question to you. Is that true? Are you apathetic towards them, or simply think they are a tool of our evil corporatocracy regime? Or do you appreciate the sacrifices they have made and simply choose to honor them by continuing your daily life? If it is the latter rather than the former, your words didn't seem to support that. (And that is your right, if so, but it is also very sad and pathetic too, sir.)

T. Paine said...



"One last parting comment concerning your myopic and non-peripheral vision, Mr. Paine... you've chosen to key your condemnation on a lowly non-commissioned soldier who came face-to-face with possibly a first moment consciousness raising experience, that unfortunately for him occurred during an inconvenient time." ~ JG

Good Lord, JG. "A first moment consciousness raising experience"? The mental gymnastics some leftists go through in order to mitigate or excuse treason that resulted in the death of others is amazing. The fact that you think that I am the one that is myopic and don't see the long-term ramifications of excusing this type of behavior yourself is quite telling.

As for your Russia Today link to the Fat Leonard scandal, it would appear that this investigation is still on-going. I wonder how many admirals and other senior officers caught up in this are the disgusting politicians in uniform that President Obama appointed and advanced while retiring those senior officers that would not go along with his social engineering programs and dangerous agendas in the military?

And of course, once the facts are brought forth from the investigators, I think ever officer that is found to have been guilty of these bribery charges and disseminating ships' movements etc. should be court martialed, given dishonorable discharges, and thrown in federal prison for life. The way the military has been wussified though, and judging by how Manning and Bergdahl have been treated, they too will likely get only slaps on the hands.

It is foolish to assume that simply because I haven't commented on this on-going investigation yet, that I condone such behavior among the officer ranks too. They should be made an example of, if the allegations turn out to be accurate.

The fact that you think I would excuse these despicable officers and then accuse me of not following Christ tells me once again more about your politics and myopia than anything else. Treason by a private first class or an admiral is treason regardless. Both should receive severe punishments, regardless of the "enlightenment" you think that Bergdahl was seeking. Perhaps you should get your red-tinted glasses checked, sir.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"...spare me the politically motivated 'war crimes' tripe attributable to Bush. There is nothing of substance there whatsoever."

There's "nothing of substance"? Spare me, Mr. Paine. Have you already forgotten Abu Ghraib, black sites and other locations used to carry out illegal torture? I recall having to remind you about the Patriot Act in the recent past. Have you already conveniently forgotten these other acts and events?!

Besides, don't I have the same license to blame G.W. Bush for conduct unbecoming of his military officers as you do with your comments blaming B. Obama for officers under his command in the Fat Leonard scandal?


"...and think this is simply a right-wing problem."

I've never posited the claim that history hasn't had leftist regimes destroy or outlaw liberties, Mr. Paine, but you seem to think I did. Perhaps you suffer from reading comprehension disabilities just like your faithful little village idiot?

Did my sentence, "Throughout history, human rights and liberties have always been associated with the left -- never conservatism." cause your confusion and unwarranted backlash? There's quite a difference in meaning, wouldn't you agree?


"I agree that Citizen's United and giving corporate entities the same voting rights etc. as citizens is wrong and must be reversed."

You always focus on Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission when we have this discussion, and conveniently ignore the history of other landmark decisions that have unjustly given constitutional rights reserved for humans to inanimate legal entities. Are you familiar with Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad (in 1886), or Buckley v. Valeo (from 1976), or even First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti (1978)?

I would think, being the Constitutional "originalist" you claim to be, you'd be in total and wholesale agreement with me on this issue. But once again, your myopic vision doesn't allow you to see the full ramifications of this legal fiction called corporate personhood.


"[Thomas Jefferson] was a man that understood the intrinsic value of life and liberty for every individual. Your penchant for seemingly supporting the collective, often at the denigration of the individual, hardly seems to be in line with the Jefferson that non-revisionist history portrays."

Your claim of my "penchant for seemingly supporting the collective, often at the denigration of the individual", is amazingly off-base, Mr. Paine, even for you. Do you really need to resort to out-and-out lies about your opposition in order to justify your own position?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"...it would appear that this [Fat Leonard] investigation is still on-going. I wonder how many admirals and other senior officers caught up in this are the disgusting politicians in uniform that President Obama appointed and advanced while retiring those senior officers that would not go along with his social engineering programs and dangerous agendas in the military?

And of course, once the facts are brought forth from the investigators, I think ever officer that is found to have been guilty of these bribery charges and disseminating ships' movements etc. should be court martialed, given dishonorable discharges, and thrown in federal prison for life.
"

And, as I would expect from you, you're accepting of the much lesser offenses of bribery, conspiracy to commit bribery, and conspiracy to defraud the United States -- rather than the most serious of offenses of treason against the United States and/or espionage against the United States.

Yet, you're ready to hang the lowly Sergeant Bergdahl for deserting his post -- even after enlightenment found him (not the other way around, as you presupposed). Your analysis speaks volumes, Mr. Paine. Volumes.


"Perhaps you should get your red-tinted glasses checked, sir."

You'll have to explain what you're implying, "sir", because I haven't a clue what you mean. If you're falling back on your tired and overused accusations of "collectivism", please get some new material. I far outshine you when it comes to individualism, personal liberties, and justice for all -- not only for an elitist few.


"...it comes across that you couldn't care less about the veterans that have fought and defended this nation..."

Veterans drafted to fight unjust wars, or volunteers who fought in the last world war, I have the utmost and respect toward. They've defended the nation. For those who've joined the military to defend and support the military-industrial-complex and collect the socialized privileges, I neither salute nor revere. If that's your thing by all means please feel free, but you shouldn't feel insulted when others choose to avoid the obvious charade.

Majormajor said...

"Sergeant Bergdahl for deserting his post"

A fact now proven in court and by law, punishable. So what's the problem with that?

Remember: No justice no peace!