tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post6811854384358105265..comments2024-03-28T14:14:11.551-06:00Comments on Unabashedly American: Against the Atheistic Notion of FaithDarrell Michaelshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05474956372325309461noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-72677117490335803032013-08-13T12:06:25.815-06:002013-08-13T12:06:25.815-06:00Jerry said: "Heresy - Belief or opinion contr...Jerry said: "Heresy - Belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (esp. Christian) doctrine.<br /><br />People have been excommunicated and/or killed for heresy because they violated a belief of the church, a belief later proven by fact, logic and reason to be wrong."<br /><br />More people have been killed in the last century for heresy and other nonconformity by Atheists than for any other reason in the last 100 years. This total might be the largest in all history.<br />dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-84278423745771278952013-08-01T12:06:39.086-06:002013-08-01T12:06:39.086-06:00Galileo, I presume? Galileo’s discovery was groun...Galileo, I presume? Galileo’s discovery was groundbreaking and scientifically revolutionary at the time as most of his scientific colleagues all held to a geocentric instead of a heliocentric view of our solar system. Galileo’s scientific discoveries and observations were actually encouraged by the Catholic Church originally. What got Galileo in trouble was his attempts to make controversial theological statements while mocking Pope Urban in the process. If he would have stuck to science, he would have been fine. Instead, he wandered into theology where he should not have tread. That said, Galileo was not tortured nor excommunicated for this. He was effectively placed under house arrest, complete with his own servant. Despite this, he remained a devout Catholic, partaking of the Eucharist until he died.<br /><br />Also, Galileo’s finding seemed to refute a literal reading of scripture. While back in his day, there were plenty of clergy that thought this way, many others did not. Catholicism today does not necessarily subscribe to a literal interpretation of the Bible, particularly regarding the Old Testament. That said, in light of revealed Faith, nothing Galileo said changed or disputed any core tenet of dogma or doctrine. <br />Darrell Michaelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05474956372325309461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-41666180166306796822013-07-31T18:15:28.352-06:002013-07-31T18:15:28.352-06:00So no one was ever harmed for saying the earth was...So no one was ever harmed for saying the earth was not the center of the solar system? Jerry Critterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870618647449723147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-38128649467098971802013-07-31T14:08:35.793-06:002013-07-31T14:08:35.793-06:00Actually, heresy has one more element to it. One ...Actually, heresy has one more element to it. One has to at first be a believer in that particular faith and then espouse an opinion that is contrary to the doctrine or dogma of that faith to accurately be labeled a heretic. If one never believed in that faith from the start and espoused opinions contrary to its doctrine, one would be an infidel to that faith and not a heretic.<br /><br />Next, I have no problem with heretics being excommunicated from any faith of which they don’t hold to the orthodoxy thereof. Such is the right of various faiths to expel members who espouse doctrine contrary to what that given faith’s authority teaches as authentic. And while what you said about people having been killed for heresy is undoubtedly true in history, I bet you would be hard pressed to give me examples off of the top of your head of the Catholic Church doing so without doing any research on the subject. Again, any institution comprised of humans, even churches, will be corrupt to various degrees simply by mankind’s fallen nature. I further bet you would have a REALLY hard time coming up with a Catholic heretic that was proven correct in his theological understanding.<br /><br />“It appears that the core is shrinking, since the core consists of those beliefs yet to be proven wrong. Or we have been punishing people for transgressions of "minor" beliefs, ones that are not really that important except to maintain control of the masses.”<br /><br />I can poke serious holes into the middle of several other various faith’s doctrine both theologically and scientifically, but I challenge you to present one element of dogma of the Catholic faith that has been shown to be scientifically wrong in its two thousand year history.<br /><br />Lastly, I would agree that the core of orthodox Christianity is indeed shrinking, but not because the faith seeks to “control the masses”, but rather people have abandoned those long held morals and principles and instead have turned to their own desires, whims, and uninformed consciences in today’s secularly humanist society in how they now choose to live their lives. As for them leaving Catholicism because those beliefs have been “proven wrong”, the onus is upon you to support such an assertion, sir. I would humbly submit to you that is those that are leaving because of some perceived dogmatic error who are actually the ones that are wrong.<br />Darrell Michaelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05474956372325309461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-52328062138320988102013-07-31T11:24:59.001-06:002013-07-31T11:24:59.001-06:00Heresy - Belief or opinion contrary to orthodox re...Heresy - Belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (esp. Christian) doctrine.<br /><br />People have been excommunicated and/or killed for heresy because they violated a belief of the church, a belief later proven by fact, logic and reason to be wrong. <br /><br />It appears that the core is shrinking, since the core consists of those beliefs yet to be proven wrong. Or we have been punishing people for transgressions of "minor" beliefs, ones that are not really that important except to maintain control of the masses.Jerry Critterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870618647449723147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-10133861928919817822013-07-31T09:54:45.547-06:002013-07-31T09:54:45.547-06:00Jim, I understand your premise; however, I think i...Jim, I understand your premise; however, I think if one were to honestly and objectively look at man-kinds current full understanding of science and philosophy, logic would absolutely point towards the existence of God. Indeed, with all of the facts in evidence for a creator of the universe, it strikes me that it would take a far greater leap of faith to NOT believe in God then it would be to embrace His existence.<br /><br />Jerry, I cannot honestly think of any core element of faith that has ever been proven wrong by fact, logic, or reason. That’s not to say that it hasn’t happened, but only that I cannot think of any such examples. Further, if I were to find such an example, I suspect it would not harm that virtue of faith, but rather clarify our understanding in seeing the big picture regarding God and his creation. In other words, it would correct our current understanding and the faith derived from it so that we will have even better understanding and thus even greater faith. The virtue of faith has nothing to fear from seeking understanding and seeking truth. God is truth. Seeking him in faith will always eventually lead to His truth accordingly.<br />Darrell Michaelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05474956372325309461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-54139574634815340052013-07-30T22:34:47.273-06:002013-07-30T22:34:47.273-06:00So, when an element of faith is proved wrong by fa...So, when an element of faith is proved wrong by fact, logic, and reason, it is supposed to increase faith? I don't see how that works. Jerry Critterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870618647449723147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-73801081499126510862013-07-30T13:11:18.882-06:002013-07-30T13:11:18.882-06:00I'm an agnostic rather than an atheist because...I'm an agnostic rather than an atheist because at this point in time I think it's impossible for humans to either prove or disprove the existence of God.<br /><br />One thing that had really been troubling me lately was the whole thing about being asked to pray for people after some kind of natural disaster. But somebody on Facebook pointed out to me that even if you're not religious you can still send positive energy out to those who are hurting. I know it sounds kind of New Agey but at least it made feel better about the concept of prayer. Jim Marquishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07192637469594429978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-8949535928691975052013-07-30T10:40:24.080-06:002013-07-30T10:40:24.080-06:00Well, not precisely. Faith’s ultimate goal is a b...Well, not precisely. Faith’s ultimate goal is a belief in God. That belief is buoyed and supported by fact, logic, and reason. As we expand what we know and can logically deduce, it only strengthens that faith in better understanding God and his creation.Darrell Michaelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05474956372325309461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-91218285152848068872013-07-30T10:35:11.608-06:002013-07-30T10:35:11.608-06:00"Faith merely expands on that foundation of r..."Faith merely expands on that foundation of reason and leads one further down the path that is not yet illuminated by our own intellect and reason. "<br /><br />So, faith is fluid, changing as intellect and reason increase, always staying one step ahead of actual knowledge?Jerry Critterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870618647449723147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-20378458228460804172013-07-30T10:24:49.314-06:002013-07-30T10:24:49.314-06:00The cardinal theological virtue of faith (the oppo...The cardinal theological virtue of faith (the opposite of a vice) is based on reason. It is not a blind acceptance of some theological idea or principle that flies in the face of and is contrary to informed reason, history, and science. Faith merely expands on that foundation of reason and leads one further down the path that is not yet illuminated by our own intellect and reason. <br /><br />Faith as a virtue in the context of which I was speaking, is not a “religious denomination” like Mr. Deming erroneously posited. It is certainly not thinking that the earth is only a few thousand years old in contrast with everything that science has taught us. It is a philosophical explanation and belief that furthers our understanding based on the foundation that our God-given intellects have allowed us to already discern regarding the world He created for us.<br /><br />And it certainly is not proving a negative, such as Keynesian economics working in the real world as an example, sir.<br />Darrell Michaelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05474956372325309461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-40962904737482874862013-07-30T10:12:22.037-06:002013-07-30T10:12:22.037-06:00In other words, you are proving a negative? Or ma...In other words, you are proving a negative? Or maybe faith is what is left after you eliminate everything it is not.Jerry Critterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870618647449723147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-47028473274805585252013-07-30T09:23:01.651-06:002013-07-30T09:23:01.651-06:00Jerry, with all due respect, you just illustrated ...Jerry, with all due respect, you just illustrated perfectly the premise of my post.Darrell Michaelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05474956372325309461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408858764761620479.post-23132465158612609872013-07-27T11:16:14.875-06:002013-07-27T11:16:14.875-06:00It seems your explanation of faith is based on wha...It seems your explanation of faith is based on what it is not, rather than what it is, a curious line of reasoning.Jerry Critterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870618647449723147noreply@blogger.com